Coach: Why am I Shooting Low and Right? (Lefty)

[Llando88]

Hi Coach. Need some advice please.

I'm a lefty, new shooter. I seem to consistently shoot low and right, and am trying to address my issue.

Based on what I've read, I am "overgripping" the pistol, but I am not real sure what "overgripping" means.

The ammo I am using is PMC Bronze 115 gr FMJ. The pistol is a rental S&W M&P FS in 9mm. I have shot 1,235 rounds over the last 6 months or so (same pistol, same ammo).

I'm trying to use a consistent, balanced "nose over toes" stance.

My grip is pretty high, as high as I can get. My thumbs generally are pointed downrange. I extend about as far as is comfortable, and I don't use a death grip, but enough grip in my shooting (left) hand to control the sight. I shoot at silhouette targets at about 7 yards at our local range, Shooter's World in Tampa.

A picture of me shooting is in picture one, for reference.

I usually shoot in groups of five, slowly, and try to focus firmly on the front sight, squeeze the trigger and wait for the bang. But what usually happens is that all my rounds will land low and right. They will group ok, but almost all groups are low and right.

The second picture shows a typical group, low and right.

Lately I have been wondering, "is it the gun" and I've lurked enough on the board to be pretty sure, you know, "it's not the gun". .

But I've never really, been able to pin-point what I am doing wrong.

Now, as an experiment, on one of my last groups this weekend, I REALLY tried to SLOWWWWW Way down and allow the shot to break 'whenever' it happened. I remember, I was kind of surprised, when a shot took place, in this group. When I looked up, this group was the first time, EVER, that I started putting rounds at or around the center of the target i.e. where I was aiming.)

This is the last picture.

So, I must have done something, on that last group, because I was astonished that I was able to do that, and finally, I was firing and landing, on the center of the target (more or less; the last round I was so excited I was landing near where I aimed, that I forgot. That is the one out there at 3 o'clock lol.)

So my question is, is it only the fact that I was so focused, so determined not to move the front site off the target, that I was drawing the trigger straight back and not somehow twisting the gun low and right as I shot, in the last second? Or is there something else I did right in this last group that resulted in better accuracy?

And what is "overgripping" anyway?

The Mrs. and I just moved to Tampa, so I don't know a lot of folks to ask locally just yet who can help me with this at the range.

I have however, learned the folks on this forum are some of the most experienced shooters I've ever seen, so I thought I would turn to ya'll and get some feedback on what was going on.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

Much obliged.

Rich

 

[Danno_man]

Usually a little more finger on the trigger helps. If you are using the tip of you finger, move it until the trigger is between the tip and first joint.

A few other things is dry fire with an empty case balanced on the front sight. The case should stay on the front sight if you have a good trigger pull.

If you have a shooting partner at the range have them hand you the gun with it either loaded or with an empty chamber. If you see any movement when the chamber is empty, you need more work on your trigger control.

Those are a few tips that I've used to help other shooters.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 4

 

[miles71]

WitHout seeing you shot in person it's tough, but my guess would be you are squeezing with all your fingers on your shooting hand. Concentrate on just moving your trigger finger. The suggestion to dry fire or use snap caps is a great one.

Though to do, but only move the trigger.

TD

 

[ginzo]

I was at the range (indoor) yesterday, and noticed a few lanes over a laser, he was all over the place. I walked over just to see the laser set up, asked if it was ok to watch from behind. (crimson trace) on a fancy, nice 45 kimber. Some kind of compact. 1 thing led to another, he offered me 3 rounds to try the kimber/laser combo. Was weird to me but I hit the red with all 3. (Lucky)! Nice gun, but love my M&P.

Long story short, he had same issues as you, my advice was same as Danno_man. Told him also to practice dry fire, forget laser for now and use sites. His grip issue was trigger finger more than anything else I could notice. He was at the 1st knuckle.

P.S. Southpaw also.

Usually a little more finger on the trigger helps. If you are using the tip of you finger, move it until the trigger is between the tip and first joint.

A few other things is dry fire with an empty case balanced on the front sight. The case should stay on the front sight if you have a good trigger pull.

If you have a shooting partner at the range have them hand you the gun with it either loaded or with an empty chamber. If you see any movement when the chamber is empty, you need more work on your trigger control.

Those are a few tips that I've used to help other shooters.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 4

 

[scooter123]

First question. Are you "fingering" the trigger guard? Yeah, I know, they are hooked and textured so your probably supposed to put the index finger of the support hand there. NO YOU ARE NOT supposed to "finger" the trigger guard. That particular grip style was considered bad technique within a month of it's hitting wide exposure. Why we are still stuck with those ugly hooked trigger guards I don't understand because nobody I know of would ever consider using it. BTW, the problem with this particular bad habit is that it makes it far too easy for your support hand to "steer" the handgun and as a result makes for miserable accuracy.

Second question. Are you shooting "sidesaddle". This is a rotation of the strong hand around the grip to get more finger on the trigger. Hold your hand straight up with your thumb and fingers forming a Vee. Right smack in the middle of that Vee is the point that should be centered on the backstrap of your grip. If you have trouble getting enough finger on the trigger install the smaller grip insert. If it results in your trigger finger being past the first joint install the larger grip insert. Ideally what you want to see when looking down at the pistol in your strong hand with your finger positioned on the trigger is that the muzzle is in perfect alignment with the bones in your forearm. If you see an offset you are side saddling the grip.

Paying attention to the above details will usually help with Left/Right deviations.

Now for the shooting low part of the equation. This is almost universally a matter of anticipating the gun firing and pushing it down. Basically, it's a Push Flinch. The fastest way to identify this problem is by having someone load 2 or 3 snap caps (inert shells) into your magazine. When you hit one of these snap caps and the gun doesn't fire you'll see just how much flinch you have. BTW, experienced shooters tend to learn how to "feel" it when they start doing this and respond by slowing down and concentrating on a "pure" clean release of the trigger. If you've ever studied Zen you'll find that some of those meditation techniques can work wonders for controlling a tendency to flinch.

BTW, about flinching. First, it's a totally natural human response to a loud noise and sudden jolt. IMO any shooter who claims they don't ever flinch are either lying, have only ever fired one single shot, or have never shot anything more powerful than a 22 Short. Basically, if you shoot a centerfire handgun long or often enough you WILL have to learn how to cope with a flinch or take up Bowling.

 

[snubbyfan]

WitHout seeing you shot in person it's tough, but my guess would be you are squeezing with all your fingers on your shooting hand. Concentrate on just moving your trigger finger. The suggestion to dry fire or use snap caps is a great one.

Though to do, but only move the trigger.

TD

I agree with Miles, sounds like you're squeezing your fingers. Maybe a little bit of a flinch. Lotsa dry fire practice can help.
This chart is for a right handed shooter, just reverse it.

 

[Danno_man]

For the Lefty

and the Righty

VIDEO0030.mp4 - YouTube

VIDEO0048.mp4 - YouTube

 

[Tupperware]

Scooter offers some very good advice.
Regardless of what the chart says, low and right hits for a left-handed shooter are frequently related to anticipation of recoil.
First, I'm a fan of isosceles stance, the following applies to that stance.
I'd square your stance off and have you face the target nearly straight ahead. OK to have your right foot slightly forward of the left, perhaps a few inches. Weight should be on the balls of your feet such that if you had a dollar bill under your heel, I'd be able to steal it without tearing it. Think "walking on ice" as far as stance and balance goes. If you couldn't transfer your shooting stance to an ice rink, it's not ideal.
Your left-hand grip should be about as firm as you'd hold a hammer, nothing more. your right hand grip should be very firm, but not so much that it introduces tremors. left hand squeezes front to rear and right hand squeezes side to side. Both thumbs point downrange but are just "along for the ride" and should not exert force on the firearm.

 

[dlcra]

Is your advice reversible?

Your left-hand grip should be about as firm as you'd hold a hammer, nothing more. your right hand grip should be very firm, but not so much that it introduces tremors. left hand squeezes front to rear and right hand squeezes side to side.

I frequently shoot low and left. May I adapt your suggestions from left-hand grip to right-hand grip simply by reversing them?

Great visuals and solid advice!
Thanks!

 

[Rastoff]

Why we are still stuck with those ugly hooked trigger guards I don't understand because nobody I know of would ever consider using it.

Yes, hooking the front of the trigger guard is bad. However, there is a use for those textured guards, but I'll address that at another time.

Regardless of what the chart says, low and right hits for a left-handed shooter are frequently related to anticipation of recoil.

This is quality advice and really the source of the OP's problem.

First, I'm a fan of isosceles stance, the following applies to that stance.

Based on the pic in the OP, it looks like he has a hybrid stance; part Weaver, part Isosceles. Not good and I'll address that in a moment.

left hand squeezes front to rear and right hand squeezes side to side.

This is the first time I've heard this. My first thought is that it could throw off the aim, but I'm not sure. Let me think about it a little.

I'm going to make another post in a minute so it doesn't get confused with the above. It will address all the points here.

 

[Rastoff]

OK, here is what I normally post concerning grip:

Relax your thumb and get it higher in the grip. Like this:

Yes, I know that's not an M&P, but the grip is the same.

Then when the other hand comes up, it should look like this:

Yes, I also realize that I'm a lefty. The grip is the same for right handers, but a mirror image.

If you are crossing your thumbs, stop it. That has the effect of pulling the gun down. With your thumbs high, the bore is lower in the grip and allows for faster/easier recoil control.

Also, ensure the bore is in line, as much as you physically can, with your forearm:

One more thing, relax your pinkies. They offer little to no help with stabilizing the grip. I've even had some students put their pinkies straight out and seen dramatic improvement in group size.


Now, let's talk about stance. I'm going to use the OP's pic:

It's a little difficult to tell, but it looks like you're trying to square your shoulders with the target. Yet, you have you feet staggered. I'm more of a fan of the Weaver (or modified Weaver) stance for defensive shooting. We can discuss the reasoning at a later point if you like, but the purpose of this is to pick one or the other.

The Weaver stance will have your arms like this:

The shooting arm is nearly straight, but not straight, and the support arm is bent with the elbow pointed at the ground. Not locking out the shooting arm helps control recoil. The support arm must be bent (unless you're a freak of nature) because the shoulders are angled in relation to the target.

In the pic, you are hunched over a little. Stop that. Stand up straight and relaxed. Hunching does nothing to help your shooting and will only tire you out. It causes you to tense and that's bad for shooting.

The trigger finger should be on the trigger at the middle of the first pad. Think, "Press the trigger straight back" when shooting. Take your time. Every trigger break should be a surprise break just like you did with that last group.

Your concentration needs to be on the front sight. Hard focus on the front sight. Rear sight will be blurry, target will be blurry and the front sight will be in sharp focus. As you press the trigger, you're only thought needs to be, "Keep the front sight aligned with the rear." The shot will be a surprise and will go to the same place every time if done perfectly.

Dry practice is the key. For every live round I've shot through my carry gun, I have 10-50 dry presses. I have 6,500 through that gun so, I have at least 100,000 dry presses.

Putting a shell on the slide as you do dry presses is a good idea, but it's not perfect. It helps with learning to steady the gun, but it blocks the sights. Further, it must be a small casing like a .22LR. I've found that larger cases are too easy to keep up there. They will stay even with a little movement. Even a small movement will compromise the shot. We all move a little, the idea is to minimize that as much as possible.

So, another idea is a "wall" drill.
Unload your gun. (I'm not going into my "rules for dry practice" here, but I will, if you like, later.)
Now, find a spot on a wall and aim your gun at it. Put the muzzle less than an inch away from the spot. It's important to be close to the spot.
Hard focus on the front sight and prrreeeessss the trigger to the rear.
When the sear breaks, did you see movement in the sight with relation to the spot? Yes, you did. If you didn't you're not human. The concept here is to keep doing this until the movement is really tiny.

Work at all this slowly. Once you have the mechanics down, start to speed up, but always remember the basics. Eventually you'll find that you can shoot quite fast and still keep your basic mechanics controlled.

Remember this acronym: A.S.P., Accuracy, Speed and Power.
An asp is a nasty snake. Not necessarily large, but deadly. When talking about guns, Power is whatever the cartridge is; you can't change that unless you change guns.
Speed is important. If you're really slow, your target will move and you'll miss.
However, accuracy is key. You may have a lot of power, and you might be really fast, but if you can't hit your target, all the speed and power means nothing. So, work on accuracy first, then speed and power takes care of itself.

I could go on and on, but I'll stop here.

 

[Llando88]

Thanks to all who took the time to reply. I genuinely appreciate it. Ya'll gave me a lot to think about.

I will digest the above before my next trip to the range.

 

[KKECK5]

As a fellow 'lefty' i know what your taking about... Low and right, the story of my life. In order for me to correct the situation, i need to constantly tell myself to keep my arm straight and to NOT roll or limp wrist my gun hand.

 

[Rastoff]

As a fellow 'lefty' i know what your taking about... Low and right, the story of my life.

Another confession...my "salvation" came in the form of a gun.

No matter how hard I tried to concentrate, I just couldn't shoot DA/SA and striker fired guns well. In the end I had to admit to myself that I just couldn't control those triggers well. When I finally broke down and bought a 1911, my groups shrunk in half.

A good trigger does make a big difference.

As much as I like my M&Ps, there's nothing like the trigger on a 1911.

 

[Llando88]

(I'm not going into my "rules for dry practice" here, but I will, if you like, later.)

Yes please.

 

[Rastoff]

Yes please.

Since you asked nicely and I haven't typed over 1,000 words today...

Some get bent out of shape when I list these rules. So, remember what you paid for them.

We've all heard the phrase, "More people are shot by unloaded guns..." Even though that is physically impossible, most of us understand the meaning. Well, it's real. This short list will help keep you and your family safe while practicing without ammo at home.

• Unload your gun. This may sound obvious, but if it were, there would never be a negligent discharge (ND) at home.
• -
• Designate a dry practice area. If possible, pick a place that has a back stop with some ability to stop a bullet. A brick or cinder block wall is good or a wall facing a dirt hill is good too. It doesn't matter where this area is, but NEVER take ammo into this area. ALWAYS unload the gun and magazines before entering this area. Treat this area as sacred. If you have your carry gun strapped to you, don't go in this area.
• -
• Put up a target. It doesn't matter what it is, just be sure to put it up. A 3" sticky note works great. DO NOT use a permanent fixture. I can't emphasize this enough. I actually have a friend who was practicing his trigger control by pointing at guys on the TV. Yep, you guessed it, he got a brand new plasma TV, just a little sooner than he wanted. More on this later.
• -
• Say out loud, "I'm starting dry practice." Sound dumb? It's not. This alerts anyone that might hear you to what you're doing. It is also a stronger clue to yourself of what you're doing. It helps trigger that inner sense of heightened safety. Do a chamber check and magazine check at the beginning. (If you don't know what that is, just ask. I have all day.)
• -
• Set a time limit. The average attention span to achieve quality learning is about 20 minutes. You can practice for hours if you like, just break it up into sessions not longer than 20 minutes.
• -
• Do your practice. Trigger control, follow through, malfunction drills, whatever you feel like doing. Earlier in the thread I talked about a "wall drill". This is a good time to do that. You have your temporary target up and can use it because you're in your designated area where you're sure there's no ammo, right?
• -
• When you're done with your practice session, say out loud, "I'm done with dry practice", take down your target and leave the dry practice area. Again, this emphasizes the actions you're taking and ingrains a better level of safety.
• -
• Under no circumstances say, "One more time." This will eventually lead to disaster. I know of one fellow who was doing dry practice and using a picture on his wall for a target (here's another reason that's bad). He finished and loaded up his carry gun to head off to work. As he was headed out the door, he saw that picture and thought, "Just one more time." This time he had a loaded gun and put a hole in the picture and the wall. Thankfully he had a solid wall behind it and the round didn't continue to his neighbor's house.

I've had a lot of guys get upset when I mention these simple rules. Most of the rules should seem so obvious that it leaves you wondering why I would say them. Still, some think I'm questioning their manhood or something because I suggest not using the TV for a target. If you want to use your TV, fine. Just don't come crying here when you have to buy another.

Complacency is the biggest cause of NDs in the gun world. By following these rules the chance of a ND is lowered a great deal.

I have broken many of these rules myself. Fortunately, I haven't had a ND. Alas, I'm human and as such, fallible. By following these rules, it makes us all safer.

Just to hammer safety home:

1. Always handle every gun as though it were loaded.
2. Always be aware of your muzzle and only point it at something you're willing to destroy.
3. Always keep your finger off the trigger until you are pointed at your intended target.
4. Always know your target and what is in line with it. It's not enough to know the target and what's beyond. You have to be sure no one can walk in between you and the target.

 

[ginzo]

Rastoff,

DEFINITELY, rules to LIVE by........

If these rules offend you, then you shouldn't own a gun. IMHO...

 

[Llando88]

Rastoff - Thanks for taking the time to post the dry fire rules. I appreciate it.

Rich

 

[fireshot]

use a coin for balance check

There were several mentions of using an empty cartridge on the slide to control excessive movement when dry firing. I have always been told to use a coin for this technique as it does not block the sights and has a low center of gravity.

Just my 2 bits worth (pun intended)

 

[agksimon]

Just to hammer safety home:

1. Always handle every gun as though it were loaded.
2. Always be aware of your muzzle and only point it at something you're willing to destroy.
3. Always keep your finger off the trigger until you are pointed at your intended target.
4. Always know your target and what is in line with it. It's not enough to know the target and what's beyond. You have to be sure no one can walk in between you and the target.

I especially love the addendum to rule #4, about someone walking between you and the target. Even though I practice it, I'm going to start pointing it out when officiating at the range events.