Colt Trooper & other assorted goodies

[PDX1953]

I'm meeting a seller tomorrow (150 miles away) & have agreed to buy an ANIB or maybe BNIB Hi-Standard Sport King for $300. That might be top dollar but the first pistol I owned when I was 18 was a Sport King & I traded a 12" B&W TV with the channel knob broken off. You needed pliers to change channels so I think I got the better deal.

I've seen photos of the Hi-Standard & it's mint. He also has a 1915 H&R .32 Self-Loading pistol he said is spotless, a 1969 Colt Trooper in mint condition w/o a box & a 1942 Winchester M-1 Carbine that appears to be original in the photos. I've tentatively agreed to buy those four guns but don't have photos of the Colt or H&R. I can probably get the Trooper for $500 but don't know if it's one of the MK series. Does it make a difference whether or not it's a MK series and is $500 a good price?

Here's is a partial list of what he has:
Charter Arms .44 Spl with fixed sights.

Custom Birmingham Small Arms Martini in .17 Ackley Bee. Probably built by Ackley when he lived in Douglas County, OR.

2 Winchester model 52's.
One 52c with Redfield Olympic peep sights and globe in front.
One 52 b and had (has?) a Lyman TargetSpot scope.
Both are heavy barrel .22LR

Springfield A303, believed to be built in 1910. Good condition.
Springfield 30-40 Krag in good condition.
1961 Winchester Model 100 .308 semi auto. In beautiful condition & looks like it was rarely if ever fired.

Winchester model 1894 30-30's:
One is a 1915 with saddle ring in good condition except someone engraved a number on the side of the receiver.
One is from 1951 and in excellent condition except for the same number engraved on the side of the receiver.

Ruger Single Six .22 with both cylinders. Okay condition.

He bought these and many more firearms from the estate of a gentleman who owned a hardware store for many, many years. When I asked what else he had for sale he sort of laughed & said, "More than you can imagine."

Anyone want to guesstimate the values on any of these?

 

[moosedog]

Without pictures it's hard to put a price on these. Condition is everything.
The Colt Trooper is priced in the ball park even if it's a MK model and a bargain if it's an older one. Good luck, sounds exciting.

 

[les.b]

Better you than me...I would want to buy them all!! Good Grief!!

Good luck, sounds like a great adventure.

Best Regards, Les

 

[PDX1953]

Better you than me...I would want to buy them all!! Good Grief!!

Good luck, sounds like a great adventure.

Best Regards, Les

I'm planning on buying the M-1, the Colt, the H&R & the Hi-Standard. Ironically I get a sizeable inheritance check next week but have other plans for a big hunk of the money. I already have two safes bulging at the seams & a custom 2011 pistol in the works. I own quite a few safe queens that I bought as investments or to hand down to my sons who are in their 40's. One son lives in CA & can't own a few of them but everything is in a Trust & my Nephew (sort of a 3rd son) will get my Class 3 stuff. My other son laughed & said, "I'll sell them as fast as I can" although he really likes guns. Guess he has to pay for his new $600k condo that won't even be finished until October 2018. Meanwhile he's leasing a lousy $2 million house in the West hills of Portland. Not bad for a kid w/o a college degree but lots of street smarts.

 

[ky wonder]

around here a rough mark 3 will bring that price a nib one will cost 12-1400 bucks

 

[PDX1953]

around here a rough mark 3 will bring that price a nib one will cost 12-1400 bucks

I think I need to get to wherever you are. Sounds like I could double my $$ pretty quick.

 

[jsfricks]

If the 1942 Winchester M-1 Carbine is all original it could be worth a good bit of money, but most went through re-arsenal and the rear sights upgraded along with the bayonet mount added. If it has the bayonet mount then it's not in original condition. Here's a good site to educate yourself.

The U.S. Caliber .30 Carbines

 

[PDX1953]

Pix

Do these help?

 

[DWalt]

Unfortunately, the Carbine has the post-WWII modifications (as most do) and that really cuts its value greatly. Nonetheless, it still should be worth around $700-$800 in today's ridiculous carbine market. Winchester carbines are very desirable.

 

[PDX1953]

Unfortunately, the Carbine has the post-WWII modifications (as most do) and that really cuts its value greatly. Nonetheless, it still should be worth around $700-$800 in today's ridiculous carbine market. Winchester carbines are very desirable.

Can you tell me what was modified?

 

[DWalt]

Several things - the safety, the rear sight, and the addition of the bayonet lug, plus there are also usually stock replacements. Most WWII carbines were rebuilt and updated in the postwar years and put into storage (they canned them). Many were pulled out of storage for the Korean War.

Here in San Antonio was the major arsenal rebuilding depot for these carbines, just south of downtown.

 

[PDX1953]

Several things - the safety, the rear sight, and the addition of the bayonet lug, plus there are also usually stock replacements. Most WWII carbines were rebuilt and updated in the postwar years and put into storage (they canned them). Many were pulled out of storage for the Korean War.

Here in San Antonio was the major arsenal rebuilding depot for these carbines, just south of downtown.

Thanks for that. If I understand you correctly there wouldn't be any real profit if purchased at $800 & flipped. Probably do better with the Trooper & the H&R. Funny thing is, I almost never sell any guns - just collect them.

 

[DWalt]

The H&R is interesting, and not often seen. I had one in my collection back in the days when I was a U. S. pocket pistol collector in the late 1970s-early 1980s. Webley made one almost identical to it, and I guess the H&R was essentially a copy. Carefully check the sliding plate on the rear of the slide for damage. They often were the victims who didn't know the proper disassembly procedure.

Regarding rebuilt carbines, the arsenal took no care to keep parts together. Most are made of a conglomeration of parts from different manufacturers. About the only ones original and with matching components were those brought back by GIs in their duffel bags when they returned home after WWI. I have seen only one of those, and it was completely as it left the factory. It was offered to me for $1500. I should have bought it, as it is one of the unusual early ones made by Saginaw Steering Gear.

 

[PDX1953]

The H&R is interesting, and not often seen. I had one in my collection back in the days when I was a U. S. pocket pistol collector in the late 1970s-early 1980s. Webley made one almost identical to it, and I guess the H&R was essentially a copy. Carefully check the sliding plate on the rear of the slide for damage. They often were the victims who didn't know the proper disassembly procedure.

Thanks. In doing a little (very little) research on the H&R I thought I read it was originally a Webley design & licensed to H&R. But I could be incorrect & I'd hate to be incorrect for the first time in 2017 on the last day of the year.

 

[les.b]

Yes, the H&R was based on the Webley. The Webley had an external hammer, and the H&R doesn't. I believe that Webley collaborated with H&R on the design, and I believe that there was some licensing involved. I still have one, I'll see if I camps find a photo. Watch out for broken grips.

Here's mine. There is a chip missing on the forward top edge of the grip:

Really cool, interesting autos.

Another view:

Best Regards, Les

 

[Frank46]

Check the serial number on the Springfield 1903. Rough guess is that anything above 800,0000 or higher should be good to go. The lower numbered Springfield receivers were made of carbon steel and their heat treatment was not all it should have been. These are referred to as "low number" Springfields. So if the serial number is less than 800,000 which they didn't reach until 1918 don't buy it. The latter 1903's made by Springfield had what they called a double heat treatment and are safe. Since you mention the Springfield was made in 1910 most likely a low numbered one. This info came from a NRA reprint so should be correct. Frank

 

[jimmyj]

WOW !
Mortgage your home, sell your car, wife, and children, borrow from your friends and relatives and buy all those goodies !

*** keep your dog

 

[2152hq]

The Springfield '03 from 1910 would be just that,,a Model 1903.
The Model '03A3 was a WW2 variation.

A 1910 built rifle from Springfield would be a 'Low#', single heat treat receiver and bolt. Those are the ones that were later suspected of faults & weaknesses from the heat treating done to them.
Long and heated debates yet today over why it occured and wether the rifles are safe with anything through them. Some others on the opposing side continue to shoot theirs.
That whole debate aside,,and I don't wish to enter into it myself,,,
an early production '03 Springfield such as a 1910 vintage would still be a valuable collectors item,,,IF,,
it were still in it's original configuration (not been sporterized or otherwise updated over the years with later mfg parts,,or refinished in any way.
The bbl if original to the rifle will have the US proof mark at the muzzle behind the rear sight and a 2 digit year of proof right with it.
If it is a 1910 production rifle w/ it's '10 proofed bbl,,,,it's big plus to the collector.
Bore condition,,the better the more value.
Early rifles like this had a straight down bolt handle. The later double heatreat rifles (so called High#) produced in 1918 and beyond had the bolt hand slightly angled to the rear.
Many bolts have been replaced with a later one. Again,,something collectors watch.
There are mutitudes of small points that they look at and for when looking over one of these for originality,,but a nice early one, though not considered an avaerage range toy can have some nice collector value.
$1000 and up is not unusual for an unmolested early 1903.
Do some home work and check it over carefully if it appears to be all issue at first glance and not a sporterized or parts rifle.

Us Krag rifles 30-40 are getting pricey too. Several versions including carbines.
Lot's of cut down and sporterized rifles too.
The latter usually worth in the $150 and up range.

A nice clean issue Krag can be $500/600 and up. Usually up
Any of them dated that could have been used in the Span/Am war bring an additional $$.
Check the locking lug and just to the rear of it on the bolt body for cracks. They are not unkn on these. Easy to spot with a good eyeball examination.
Lots of variations, sights, handguards,,ect. Many mongrel rifles around so watch for parts switching.

 

[SPEEDGUNNER]

Bundle man, bundle. Don't you watch "American Pickers"? My FFL will sometimes call me with a list of guns from an estate or a seller like you have been offered, and just like much of the sage advice you have been offered in this thread, I just buy them all. Once you go through the package, sort, clean, learn what you have, you will most likely be able to recover your total cost selling off the ones you don't want, thereby owning the ones you do want for the best price - FREE.

Keep us posted with details and pictures, some interesting stuff in your grouping. Good luck.

 

[DWalt]

For those interested in the metallurgy and supposed hazards of the "low numbered" '03 Springfields, Hatcher's Notebook contains an extensive discussion of that issue. While there were some blowups, and in fact there was defective metallurgy (generally involving the method of heat treating used for receivers and bolts), the U.S. Army did not withdraw them from service. Hatcher thoroughly discusses each known instance of an '03 failure and attributes most of them to either use of defective ammunition (not that unusual for WWI production) or instances involving attempts to fire 8mm Mauser ammunition in them. While I do not shoot it much these days, I have an original high-condition '03 from Springfield Armory ca. early 1917, and the fact that it has a low number has never kept me from firing it. Hatcher also makes some interesting comments about the dangers of excessive headspace in the '03 Springfield, concluding that it has to be very excessive before it becomes unsafe.