Commercial 1917 Target - letter confirmed, post #13 - SWHF docs, post #15

[Tom K]

I had thought at first that I would piggyback this on Jim Fisher's thread on his 1917 Target Conversion, but I think it might merit its own thread.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/402727-tulsa-find-1917-target-converted-after-1935-a.html

*edit* - see post #13 for the S&W factory letter information.

*edit* - see post #15 for Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation documents.

*edit* 10-03-2020 - dead picture links removed, some replacement pics added


They say, "Buy the gun, not the story." So I was perusing Gunbroker again and found what was described as a Commercial 1917 with King adjustable rear sight, supposedly sent to King Sight Co. in the 1940s. That's the story, but the pictures didn't look like a King sight, it looked like a prewar S&W adjustable sight. The front sight didn't look like a King either. Okay, probably not a King conversion but it looked good enough to bid on.

So I picked it up yesterday. Numbers all match, 180173 - frame, cylinder, barrel, extractor, yoke. Except I can't see any number at all on the stocks. Certainly not stamped and if they were ever penciled in, it's faded into oblivion. So I took off the adjustable rear sight. The serial on the underside of it matches too. No rework stamps on the frame. No U.S. Army marking. Okay, let's see what the SCSW has to say (after I've already bought the thing).

From page 164 (3rd edition):

"Target model variations: Very rare. Our information on these is not entirely clear. To the best of our knowledge: Estimated fewer than five produced. Has a round 5-1/2" pinned barrel, with a pinned Patridge front sight (possibly found with a Call Gold Bead) on a raised boss with a rounded rear sight leaf contoured to the frame, adjustable for windage and elevation. The backstrap and forestrap are smooth, the frame also having a lanyard ring. It is thought that these were made for an Army shooting team. This version is also missing the S&W trademark and has all other markings of the standard military model, including a small eagle's head with an S2 inside the yoke cut, on the barrel flat and the face of the cylinder. Grips may be stamped "U.S." on both halves. Worth premium. Beware of fakes.

We have also received a report of a "Commercial 1917 Target Model" reported as very rare and worth substantial premium. However it is unclear to us whether this is the same variation discussed above, a different variation, or possibly even a variation of the postwar 1917. Further information would be appreciated."

Oh, and after I received it the seller said it had belonged to an LAPD Sgt Fleming. Googling that info brings up a post on this site: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...sheriffs-department-1940-a.html#post138161731


Here are pictures.

The front sight looks like it had a Call bead, but it's gone now. Just a hole in the sight face.

Lanyard but no U.S. Army marking on the butt.

Cylinder serial matches.

Is this a Commercial 1917 Target? Kinda looks like it might be. Or it might be one of the fakes to beware of. Would those more knowledgeable please weigh in with opinions?

 

[lowhog]

Great thread. I wonder if the notch was milled in the front sight at a later date and the bead removed.

 

[Muley Gil]

Based on the appearance of the topstrap and the numbered rear sight, I vote for factory target.

 

[bmg60]

Tom
I believe it is a original target but only a letter will tell. great find now if it letters we will have to change the amount to 6 known.
Jim
if you want to know before you send for a letter a call to Roy mite tell you if it is right or not.
some times the invoices do not alway say the right things.
But it looks right to me.
Jim Fisher

 

[beagleye]

If that's a fake, it's a good one.

 

[hardscrabble]

Did that gun come out of Utah? If it did I think I'll throw myself on the ground and weep. And I'm sitting in a deer stand.

 

[Tom K]

Did that gun come out of Utah? If it did I think I'll throw myself on the ground and weep. And I'm sitting in a deer stand.

I don't mean you any harm but yes, the seller was out of Cedar City, UT. Here's the closed auction: S&W Smith & Wesson 1917 45 ACP Commercial w/King s : Revolvers at GunBroker.com

 

[hardscrabble]

I guess I got out a little early. I knew it was in th SN range of some of the known targets. I let myself get distracted by another auction. I hope it's a target, Tom, but you got a great gun at a great price regardless of how it turns out.

 

[beagleye]

Right there in plain sight- good score.

 

[Tom K]

*edit* 10-03-2020 - dead picture links removed, replacement pics added

I took the gun out to the range a few days ago - I figured if Jim Fisher could shoot when it was 5 degrees I could do it when it's 50. All were shot at about 22 yards, two-handed standing.

I first used some 230 gr ball - oddly, I believe it's the very last of some Chinese Norinco stuff I bought probably 20 years ago.

Second was some CCI aluminum cased Blazer with the 200gr JHP (the "flying ashtray"). As you can see I yanked one pretty bad. I also swapped out the original service grips for some comfortable ones.

Last was some handloaded Auto Rim, a 200gr plated hollow point over 5.5 grains of Bullseye.

 

[tommy F]

Very nice especially with target grips

 

[6518John]

I want to know if it's one of 6 known. Too much suspense to wait 6 months!

 

[Tom K]

*edit* 10-03-2020 - dead picture link removed, replacement pic added

Just received a letter on the gun today from Roy. It appears to be righteous. There is no mention of the configuration of the front sight though.

Next stop - the SWHF. The last information I got from them was that they were working on the 1920-26 records. Maybe info for this one will be available, otherwise it might be a while.

 

[bmg60]

Tom
I think that gun was for the Las Angles Police dept. I don't know if you can get a connection or not.
I have one from the same time period that went to the LAPD. it has a target front
sight and a checkered trigger and back straps Special order.

Jim Fisher

Great gun and a great find. There are only about 3 from that time frame.

serial number 180982 shipped to Canada my collection
serial number 180027 Shipped to LAPD in my collection
and yours.

 

[Tom K]

....
Next stop - the SWHF. The last information I got from them was that they were working on the 1920-26 records. Maybe info for this one will be available, otherwise it might be a while.

I received copies of documentation from the SWHF a couple of weeks ago. Luckily the DVD that has info for 1927-29 also had some for the fourth quarter of 1926. I'm not posting all of it, but here's a capsule summary.

There was some mailing back and forth between S&W and the Union Hardware & Metal Company on the configuration of the revolver. Interestingly it was initially ordered as a Model 1908 military revolver. Wait, what's a Model 1908? Turns out that's another name for the Triple Lock - I had no idea until I looked it up in the SCSW.

The Union Hardware & Metal Company then changed the order to a regular US Army revolver, fitted with target sights.

S&W then wrote back to let them know that the regular Army revolver did not come with target sights, but that they could be fitted with them for an extra $11.00 if they approved the charge.

There was apparently some missed communication as S&W sent a telegram about seven weeks later, asking if the $11.00 extra charge was approved. The Hardware company replied that they had sent a letter immediately after receiving the above letter, approving the charge. They also said that, "As this order has now been delayed quite some time, we would appreciate your putting forward every effort to make shipment just as soon as possible."


The parts that I find interesting are that:

Initially they had ordered a target Triple Lock (Model of 1908) in .45 Auto Rim (which would also be suitable for .45ACP). The SCSW shows no Triple Locks from the factory in .45ACP, so that would be rare indeed. However by 1926 S&W was no longer producing the Triple Lock.

Then they changed the order to a regular Army revolver (1917) in .45AR, with target sights.

S&W charged $11.00 to add target sights to what was normally a fixed-sight revolver. Nowhere do I see any description of the charge for the revolver itself.

The letters were taking about 5 days to get from one coast to the other. After the confusion about whether or not the $11 charge for target sights was approved, S&W replied on Oct 27 (to a letter sent to them Oct 22) that they would ship the revolver that day. That has to mean that S&W had gone ahead and fitted the revolver with the target sights without waiting for formal approval of the $11 extra charge.


I had initially asked the seller if he had any history on the gun, and he told me that it had belonged to a Sgt Fleming of the LAPD. My researched turned up a Sgt Tom Fleming of the LA Sheriff's Department who was active in the '30s (and referenced in above posts). However when I asked the seller again if he had any more specific info he said it was a Sgt. Ed Fleming of the LAPD. I don't come up with anything for that name, so the provenance is still uncertain.

Between what the SCSW says about fewer than five being produced "for an Army shooting team", and the guns that Jim has, I am unclear on total numbers of this configuration. Regardless, the one I have does appear to be legit and (hate to use this overused word, but it seems to apply here), rare.

 

[bmg60]

Hi
Tom
Great Revolver and great information I would say that with this information and the others we know about I still think there are less that 10 or 15 made.
Jim Fisher

 

[JSR III]

I wouldn't worry about the name discrepancy as the seller is probably either mis remembering or was mis informed. If you have found a reference to a Tom, then I would pursue that as it is most likely correct.

That is a great find. I had a similar score on GB when I found a "clubgun" issued to the Army inspector that was in charge of overseeing the 1917 production at the S&W factory. He is mentioned is Charlie Pates great book on page 75 in the middle paragraph, left column. Captain A.C. Trego.

The gun has no military markings. I always found it interesting that S&W would "gift" one of the 1917's to the individual that was in charge of overseeing their production. I am even a little more surprised that he was able to accept it.

 

[bettis1]

Tom,

1) There are several "Tom Flemings" listed in California. A little screening might weed out a few who are possible descendants of your revolver's owner and open further avenues of research.

2) A FOIA request to the LAPD might also be productive.

3) And finally, don't forget to research the Union Metal Co. It might still be in existence or their records might be uncovered.

Great gun and very interesting provenance. Congratulations.

Bob