Confused about reloading data charts - want to be safe

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amheck

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Very new to this - I've currently only loaded about 40 rounds using 158gr plated FP bullets over 3.7gr HP-38.

I also have some 148gr lead DEWC and some plated 125 gr TMJ bullets. I have 1 lb of Bullseye and Unique along with the HP-38.

Anyway, last week when we loaded, I couldn't find my Lee 2nd edition manual, so my uncle, who helped me, brought the 3.7 gr HP-38 recipe.

However, today, I found the Lee manual and was curious to look up the 158 gr bullets. For generic lead bullets, I was kind of shocked to see a range of 3.1-3.7 for the HP-38. I have seen others said they go up to 4.0-4.5 gr of HP-38, but here, the Lee Manual says to never exceed the 3.7gr.

I guess I'm just trying to get comfortable with trying to figure out safe loads for my bullets - everything seems to be all over the place. I want softer target loads, but also want to experiment a bit with the powder volumes to see what works. I was planning to drop down to 3.5 and up to 4.0 for the next 20 or so and then take them to the range and see how it goes. I just want to make sure everything is safe on the low and high ends.

Are the LoadBooks manuals good? WHen you find data in a book and online, how do you know you're not close to either too much or too little (to risk a squib?)

Is it best just to search here and find what people have been using and go with that?
 
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They are "all over the place" because different manual publishers are using different test guns with different bullets, brass and primers. This is why it's suggested you use multiple manuals to compare loads (thus providing an indication that a particular load may be WAY out of line, or a misprint), and always begin with the starting load and work up.
 
What Pisgah said.

Specifically with that 3.7g load, you're fine. That more or less aproximates the old std vel factory loads.
 
Agree with pisgah. How i approach a new powder/bullet combo is get data from 3 vetted sources, not your gramps. Then avg that data for a max & middle. I never use avg starting data, it rarely gives good results, so just waisting components & barrel wear imo.
I use avg mid data. Then work that up or down depending on what you are trying to achieve. Never exceed avg max data, unless you have a lot of exp & a chrono & know how to interpret that info.
 
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Another reason the recipes are all over the place, is because of differences in components. For example, Sierra may use a thicker or harder jacket than Speer, and the ballistic coefficient for one bullet is slicker than another, allowing you to reach a higher velocity with less powder.

On the flip side, does the data for lead bullets specify swaged or hard cast? In many respects, the differences also exist because of lawyers and liability in the event someone blows up a gun and tries to pass the responsibility onto whomever suggested that particular recipe.
 
Use A Chronograph

I too have wondered about conflicting reloading information. However, I've never had a safety issue. Once I acquired a chronograph, the first thing I noticed was that following the recommended loads, I was not getting the velocities alleged in the various reloading sources, including internet sources.

So, for example, pushing a 230 grain ball round out of my two .45 autos, I adjust the powder charges until I had reached a muzzle velocity of 830 FPS. I first made sure that the velocity I was looking for was safely attainable with the powder I was using. As a result, I can safely achieve velocities of 850-875 FPS using five different powders. I simultaneously watch for pressure signs, not only in the brass itself but also how far the casings are ejected. I have no need for +P loads even though my 230 grain loading is nominally faster than the traditional 830 FPS often cited for this bullet.

To do this, you must insure that the test gun or barrel used for the published loads is similar to what you're using. Trying to match velocities obtained in a 6" unvented barrel while using a 3" revolver is likely to result in dangerously high pressures.

Hope this helps.
 
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Yeah, seems like there's a lot to take into account from all over the place.

I think I'm just gonna read up on each of my bullets and powders, and then come up with what I think is a safe load and then check in here first, to ensure I'm not too far off in either direction.
 
It's good that you are looking at these differences in info where you see them and comparing. There's nothing wrong with that Lee manual but realize it is a compilation of data from many, many sources and is skinny on specific bullet data (size/profile/etcetera.) It should certainly be cross referenced with something more specific like lyman, hornady, or Hodgdon online to make sure you're in the ballpark for what you are considering loading. If you are subbing a same weight but different profile bullet, It's a good idea to peruse data from different sources and find something as similar as you can in the test data as to what you actually have.

An example from my personal experience is that XTP data usually will make a plated bullet of the same weight and general shape/length perform quite well provided the crimp isn't too severe and the velocity is reasonable for target shooting.

It isn't like everything in the recipie has to match perfectly (thank God). As you try more combinations you will get better at knowing where to start just like Fredj said above. You are writing your own load data for your firearms, and soon you will be able to cross-reference your own data and experience with that published data as well. It's good to ask questions like you have here, lots of opinions should be Examined and cross-referenced just like load data.

I've recently delved into reloading some obsolete cartridges...talk about a lack of data and outdated stuff...oy!


Loading shotgun is different. Not as much subbing of components there.
 
I have been reloading since 1962 and I am still learning. Yet another variable is the strength of the action you are firing the cartridge in. I would feel very safe firing a maximum load in a heavy frame revolver as compared to an older pre model 10 frame. I just finished pulling 100 bullets in 6.5x55 Swedish caliber. I loaded these for an old Swedish military rifle. Unquestionably they would have been fine in a modern bolt action sporter but they were a little too hot for the rifle I have. I never exceed the maximum load and seldom load to the maximum load unless there is a good reason to do so.
 
With very few exceptions.....

Mainstream reloading books (Speer, Hornady, Lee, Lyman, Sierra, etc) will have sometimes large variations, but they are all safe with strong modern guns. Even then working up from a lesser load is advisable because you may notice an excessive load before you get a cracked cylinder or worse, a 'kaboom'. (Story below)

One exception was the notorious Speer #8, which had some overly hot loads. Fortunately, you have to want one and hunt it down as it is about 45 years old.

Even with experience, I've found some differences to be rather startling and have had to ponder things for a while before I ventured into the zone.:confused::eek:

Story - I had an old Sierra book that gave +P .38 loads pretty far above the limits you see now. I tried a 'starting load' and was so surprised that I thought that I didn't need to venture on and even backed off a couple tenths of grain. I din't think it was dangerous, and I felt like I could go to the max as I was shooting a model 10 snub. I just didn't think I NEEDED to go higher.:D
 
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However, today, I found the Lee manual and was curious to look up the 158 gr bullets. For generic lead bullets, I was kind of shocked to see a range of 3.1-3.7 for the HP-38. I have seen others said they go up to 4.0-4.5 gr of HP-38, but here, the Lee Manual says to never exceed the 3.7gr.
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This is wrong. First, 'generic" data is misleading, particularly if you don't know the pressure. Data at 3.7gr or under is LESS THAN STANDARD .38 SPECIAL MAX PRESSURE.
After that comes +P, which takes you up to 4.5gr, and is perfectly safe in modern .38 and .357 revolvers.
Remember, all components must be the same for the pressure to be the same as the chronographed round, and that won't even be exact in a different chamber, or at different temp.
 
While I will encourage you to buy, and closely study, as many reloading manuals as possible, there is still much load data available on-line. Here are some links:

Hodgdon Reloading | Home

Alliant Powder - Home

Load Data << Accurate Powders

One of these will give you data for Accurate, Alliant, Hodgdon, Remington, Ramshot and Winchester!

The "Loadbooks" are OK, but can be out of date. For .38 Special, especially "standard pressure" loads you can use any of the major manuals data with no concern for safety. There is only one loading manual that I am aware of that contained information that could be dangerous, and that was published in 1970!
 
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You will find on the Aliiant site.....

If you start in the 'Reloading' section, they push the newer BE 86 HARD. It's best to go to the powder you are using and push 'All recipes for this powder'.
 
If you are a beginner there is a bewildering array of conflicting data
out there for the simple old 38 spl. Combine that with lots of just
plain wrong advice from other handloaders that simply reflect their
opinions and fearful attitudes. So what to do? Subscribe to Handloader
magazine, buy a chronograph and use loading data from the original
powder manufacturer. Original Winchester data for W231/HP38 with
158 gr bullets at std. pressure went from 4.0-4.5 grs. The pressure
limit for std. 38 spl is only 17,000 psi so the often quoted advice to
work up carefully from starting loads while looking for signs of
excessive pressure is meaningless at such low pressure. Due to
changes in marketing rights current "Alliant" data isn't actually Alliant
data. Look for older manuals published by Alliant. They are around.
Good reliable data is also available from Lyman manuals. Good luck.
 
BruceM said:
I'm just a little curious here. This is suggested by WHOM?

Bruce
Click to expand...

It's quite a common suggestion.

---

Lee can be a bit wonky. Their start data for the 158-grain LSWC over Bullseye is 3.5 grains, with a max of 3.6. Yet most sources and reloaders find great luck with 2.8gr.

I usually consult with Lee and double-check against the manufacturer's data. Then I go by the most conservative data. If I need or want something faster, I pick the powder that does it.

Your Bullseye will be great for target ammo. Light loads will buff out of the barrel anywhere from 600-720 fps or so, with no unburned powder. Meter's great, too.

Unique's a touch slow for .38 Special, but if you want something a little faster, it's a solid choice.

---

Forget about pressure or pressure signs. The max is the max and that's what it is. Truth of the matter is that you can load well into the danger zone before you see any of the "classic pressure signs".

Guns don't blow up because you suddenly reached a pressure level that the metal couldn't tolerate. They blow up when, as ballisticians like to say, the powder "goes non-linear".

In other words, 5 grains of a given powder in a given cartridge at a given OAL might produce 15k PSI, and 5.5 might produce 15.5k, and 6 grains might produce 16k PSI.

However, if you stuff 6.5 grains of Powder X in, and seat the bullet just a touch too deep, the pressure produced doesn't grow in proportion to the increased charge and decreased case volume. It increases in a non-linear fashion. Maybe it reaches 40k (Magnum pressure), or maybe it goes completely off the wall and hits 65k (rifle pressure). At which point you get chunks of flying metal.

This is why you will see some load data for some powder/bullet combinations stop before they reach a cartridge's maximum designed pressure. And it is also why you sometimes find a popular powder simply not listed for use in a given cartridge. Some extremely smart person who is paid to scientifically test powders and loads ran the tests and looked at pressure graphs.

To do this, you must insure that the test gun or barrel used for the published loads is similar to what you're using. Trying to match velocities obtained in a 6" unvented barrel while using a 3" revolver is likely to result in dangerously high pressures.
Click to expand...

You're never going to match listed velocities in a test barrel to real-world results. The two are radically different. One is a miniature breech-locked cannon operating in a controlled environment.

The other is an actual handgun. Revolvers have cylinder caps, pistols have a whole shmorgesboard of moving, leaking parts.
 
Not to mention......

Wise_A said:
It's quite a common suggestion.

---

Lee can be a bit wonky. Their start data for the 158-grain LSWC over Bullseye is 3.5 grains, with a max of 3.6. Yet most sources and reloaders find great luck with 2.8gr.

I usually consult with Lee and double-check against the manufacturer's data. Then I go by the most conservative data. If I need or want something faster, I pick the powder that does it.

Your Bullseye will be great for target ammo. Light loads will buff out of the barrel anywhere from 600-720 fps or so, with no unburned powder. Meter's great, too.

Unique's a touch slow for .38 Special, but if you want something a little faster, it's a solid choice.

---

Forget about pressure or pressure signs. The max is the max and that's what it is. Truth of the matter is that you can load well into the danger zone before you see any of the "classic pressure signs".

Guns don't blow up because you suddenly reached a pressure level that the metal couldn't tolerate. They blow up when, as ballisticians like to say, the powder "goes non-linear".

In other words, 5 grains of a given powder in a given cartridge at a given OAL might produce 15k PSI, and 5.5 might produce 15.5k, and 6 grains might produce 16k PSI.

However, if you stuff 6.5 grains of Powder X in, and seat the bullet just a touch too deep, the pressure produced doesn't grow in proportion to the increased charge and decreased case volume. It increases in a non-linear fashion. Maybe it reaches 40k (Magnum pressure), or maybe it goes completely off the wall and hits 65k (rifle pressure). At which point you get chunks of flying metal.

This is why you will see some load data for some powder/bullet combinations stop before they reach a cartridge's maximum designed pressure. And it is also why you sometimes find a popular powder simply not listed for use in a given cartridge. Some extremely smart person who is paid to scientifically test powders and loads ran the tests and looked at pressure graphs.



You're never going to match listed velocities in a test barrel to real-world results. The two are radically different. One is a miniature breech-locked cannon operating in a controlled environment.

The other is an actual handgun. Revolvers have cylinder caps, pistols have a whole shmorgesboard of moving, leaking parts.
Click to expand...

Some bores are loose, others are tight. Also, most test barrels are usually 10" in length. How many people have revolvers with 10" barrels? The load manual publishers tend to show their products at the best, even if it doesn't resemble the real world. Anybody that reloads seriously soon realizes that they aren't going to get those numbers. I believe my Speer #9 used REAL GUNS to test, and even used 4" barrels that are close enough to what most people have to be able to guesstimate more closely to what they are really getting. I do like pressure data to be shown because most of us have no way of determining pressure.
 
To me,FREDJ338's approach makes sense.All guns are not alike.I once had a model 66 that showed pressure signs and chronoed high with loads that were middle of the road.Safety first!
Qc
 
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