Confused by load data (contradictions)

[Ceapea]

I am new to reloading and after getting and reading several manuals I have become a little confused by what I have read. I posted this on the Sig reloading forum as well. For those of you that read/post there too, you may have already seen this.

Well I thought that I was finally ready to load a few rounds of 38 spl. Prepped the cases, primed and expanded them all too. Set up the powder measure and broke out the books. Look up 158gr (plated flat nose) load data for Unique...Lyman lists 4.7 to 5.0 for 158 JHP. Speer no longer lists 158gr for 38 spl. or +P in jacketed bullets (due to low velocities), but you can buy Speer Lawman 158gr FMJ just about anywhere. I did anyway. Sierra lists 5.0-6.1 for JSP. Hornady says 3.9-4.8 for XT JHP. Finally, Lee only shows 4.0-4.3 for lead bullets. I have read that plated bullets are closer to lead than FMJ bullets. I have searched the net for load data that is any different than that which I have listed above and Unique and can come up with nothing. My plated 158gr bullets are from X-treme in Nevada. I almost bought some Titegroup at the gun show today, but didn't. So, as far as I can see 4.6-4.7 is almost universal except for Sierra recommending starting at 5.0 whereas most of the others max out at 5.0-5.1, some even list 5.1 as a +P rating. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[ken158]

Plated bullets allow you to shoot lead data without leaving lead in your barrel. Unique is OK but it is a dirty powder. I use 231 for plated bullets. I would start with 4.5 grains of Unique and see how that does. Be sure this is a regular primer and NOT a magnum primer. You will always see variations in powder data due to different lots and testing methods. Some manuals are business related to powder companies and dont test other brands, etc

 

[Ceapea]

Plated bullets allow you to shoot lead data without leaving lead in your barrel. Unique is OK but it is a dirty powder. I use 231 for plated bullets. I would start with 4.5 grains of Unique and see how that does. Be sure this is a regular primer and NOT a magnum primer. You will always see variations in powder data due to different lots and testing methods. Some manuals are business related to powder companies and dont test other brands, etc

Yep. I am planning on getting some 231 and Titegroup too, to diversify my options as I plan on loading 380, 9mm, 40 and 45 also.

Thanks.

 

[cp1969]

You can always start with the lowest minimum load of the bunch and start working up from there, making the assumption that it will push the bullet out the end of the barrel, which is probably OK or it wouldn't be in the manual.

 

[buck460XVR]

I load Berry's plated bullets in my .45ACP. Berry's recommends using data for jacketed bullets from the low to mid range using the data for similar profile and weight. I use Unique with these plated and other jacketed bullets and find it burns no dirtier than other powders when used at a proper charge. It tends to burn dirty when used in too light a charge. As for the confusing data from different manuals, you will find similar discrepancies with other calibers also. One reason I use more than one published source when working up a new load. I generally throw out the highest and the lowest, average the rest and go from there. Plated bullets push easier that jacketed, so any start load for a jacketed bullet should work fine.

 

[Skip Sackett]

First things first. When starting out throw the data in the manuals away UNLESS you are going to use the EXACT components they do.

The way to start is to use the powder manufacturer's data. Find the bullet weight that you want to use, look at their load data and start at the bottom, working up in .2gr increments.

The other tool you will need is a chronograph. They are relatively cheap, $100 or so, and invaluable to a re-loader.

After you have used the powder manufacturer's data and the chronograph you can venture into the data in the manuals.

I'm not saying you don't need the manuals, don't take that wrong. I'm saying you don't need it for data to start with. You need them for the other information that is in them. That is where they come in handy for the novice re-loader.

Here is what I have done from day one: Chose a caliber/bullet weight combination, decided on a velocity range, picked a powder that covered the "range" I was looking for. Usually, somewhere in the middle of the data. Loaded to that point and worked up from there using a chronograph. Went to the manuals to compare data. If there was some discrepancy I usually split the difference and worked the load some more.

This isn't the ONLY way to do it but it has worked for some time for me and mine.

Whatever plated bullet you use, find a lead one with a similar profile and weight and use that data.

Hope this helps.

 

[Milton]

I will add one thing to smith crazy's excellent post.Not only use the same weight bullet but also for internal cartridge length.What you need to be sure of is that the bullet they and you are using fits into the case to the same depth.Not all bullets of the same weight and diameter fit the same depth into the case after you crimp.You want to produce a "combustion" chamber in the cartridge of the same volume as the manual shows and the same weight bullet.This may not be as important with weaker loads but as you begin to fill the case with powder it will become very important!

 

[dave b]

I mostly use a Lyman manual, as it gives a lot of lead and jacketed info. As long as you get pretty close on bullet weight, but not heavier, and kind of stay toward the low to mid range end of the powder data, you should have no problems. Also, tite group and 231 are similar in burn speed. For variety, you might want to try fast burn like, 231,TG,Bullseye, or AA2. Then a more medium spd,like Unique, AA5, etc.

 

[Skip Sackett]

I will add one thing to smith crazy's excellent post.Not only use the same weight bullet but also for internal cartridge length.What you need to be sure of is that the bullet they and you are using fits into the case to the same depth.Not all bullets of the same weight and diameter fit the same depth into the case after you crimp.You want to produce a "combustion" chamber in the cartridge of the same volume as the manual shows and the same weight bullet.This may not be as important with weaker loads but as you begin to fill the case with powder it will become very important!

A very good and often forgotten point. I was going to address that in another post once the OP asked a question or two.

Seating depth is THE forgotten thing in some loading information given today. It doesn't even have to be a hot load, really.
It can be caliber/firearm specific. Take the 40S&W and couple that with an unsupported chambered firearm. Have a light load but seat it just .030" deeper and you may have some real problems!

Yes, bullet profile and bullet over all length play a big part in load development.

Good reminder!

 

[cp1969]

If a .030" difference in seating depth changes a load from mild to wild, I want no part of that caliber.

 

[Rule3]

But back to your original question. You have Unique and a 158 gr plated bullet. The Alliant website lists 4.7 max for a Speer 158gr LSWC. I believe the Speer are a soft lead bullet. If it was me, I would feel comfortable using the 10% less than the 4.7 which would be 4.25 so lets call it 4.5 of Unique.
Jacketed or plated bullets though not the same, generally have a little higher powder charge as they have more friction to overcome out of the case.

Load a few (10 or so) see how it goes. With a revolver you have more leeway as to OAL than a semi auto, just do not exceed the max or below min.

Lyman lists 4.0 to 4.5 of Unique for a hard 158 gr flat nose bullet with a OAL of 1.445

Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

 

[Titegroups]

Good advice above, start lite and work your way up, a chrono is pretty much a must have. Use a strong .357 chambered gun for your .38s, those long cases provide you with a margin of error that the short cases don't. The .38 are one of the best rounds to start with. Moving that bullet .020 or .030 will make a bit of difference but the long cases and light charges will give you some leeway. Remember to keep detailed notes.

 

[Ceapea]

Thanks to all of you. I do have a chronograph and was planning to use it to "tune" my loads. I actually love the technical side of this stuff and velocity testing is always interesting to me. And I was/am planning on starting at the low end(as most all of the manuals suggest). But I found it frustrating that the starting load in some manuals were higher than the max load in others(with slight overlap) and vise versa. I did kinda reason it out to leave off the high and low loads and average it out, but that left me lower than the starting charge in some cases. Being new to all of this and not wanting a stuck in the barrel bullet, I thought that I'd ask. I did decide on a 4.5gr starting point and plan on loading 12 rounds of that and 12 each of 4.6 and 4.7 just to clock them for starters. Of course, I will be firing any "new" load out of my GP100 for maximum strength (the only N frame I have is a 38/44 Outdoorsman and I don't plan on it being my testbed.) I did notice in the manuals, all of the COAL differences and my first dummy/practice load was the exact length as the Lawman 158gr RN flat points that I have. That was with seating them to the top of the cannilure as was suggested by others. It looks like there is a wide variety of COAL for the 38/357 depending on bullet type. This should probably apply to most calibers too, but there were several different lengths for similar round nose and HP bullets in the .38 category. Another mini-mystery for me.
Thanks and I'll let you know how it worked out when I get a chance to set up on my buddies property...an hour away from my home.

 

[Ceapea]

Good advice above, start lite and work your way up, a chrono is pretty much a must have. Use a strong .357 chambered gun for your .38s, those long cases provide you with a margin of error that the short cases don't. The .38 are one of the best rounds to start with. Moving that bullet .020 or .030 will make a bit of difference but the long cases and light charges will give you some leeway. Remember to keep detailed notes.

I did consider and still want to load 38 spl. plinking/target charges in 357 cases just to avoid the rings of corrosion in the cylinder charge holes. I didn't know how much this would affect case pressure. Slightly higher load charge to offset the larger case volume? Seems to make sense to me...maybe.

 

[Rule3]

Here is another idea if you can find the powder. Get some Trail Boss. Its very light weight and costs a little more as it is only a 8 or 9 oz jar BUT:

You can not over charge a 38 or 357. It's good for just about any/all calibers. You do not even need load data for it.


Cartridge Loads - Hodgdon Reloading Data Center - data.hodgdon.com


http://smith-wessonforum.com/reload...s-reduced-load-rifle-pistol-calculations.html

158 GR. CAST LSWC Trail Boss .357" 1.475" 2.7 661 11,400 PSI 4.2 804 13,700 PSI

 

[Skip Sackett]

Same load for punching paper.

I did consider and still want to load 38 spl. plinking/target charges in 357 cases just to avoid the rings of corrosion in the cylinder charge holes. I didn't know how much this would affect case pressure. Slightly higher load charge to offset the larger case volume? Seems to make sense to me...maybe.

This is a good thought too. What most folks do is make a huge carbon ring by shooting the 38spl then throw some super hot 357Mags in only to find they are about as accurate as nothing! Extraction is usually horrible too.

My target load for 38spl is 3.5gr of Bullseye with a 158-165gr LSWC. I use the exact same load in 357Mag brass. Never have had a problem either. The chronograph will tell you. If you have one with high velocity and one with exceptionally low velocity, you most likely aren't in the proper pressure range for your powder.

I have shot against a fellow that uses 4.5gr of Unique in 357Mag cases with a 158gr LRNFP bullet. He says that below that, things get dirty for Unique.

Hope this helps and we WANT to hear your results!

 

[oldRoger]

Using the lessons from this thread we would expect that smithcrazy’s load 3.5 gr Bullseye behind a 158 gr LSWC will have a lower velocity in the .357 case as compared to the .38. This is due entirely to the COL which results in more empty case space.
Since this is entirely arbitrary, that’s to say we really don’t care what the velocity is for punching paper, we could rest here. This is not to say that a 3.5gr/158gn/.357 would be the most accurate load in your pistols, but it would be a fine place to start.

If for some reason we were trying to match velocities we would have to add a bit of powder, my guess would be about .2 grs, based upon my experience with 148 gr HBWC target loads in the two.

 

[cp1969]

I won't mess with using .357 cases for .38 power-level loads.

That so-called 'ring' that develops when using .38 cases in a .357 chamber has yet to show up in my guns and I've shot a lot of .38's in a .357. It's a total non-issue.

 

[Titegroups]

I do a lot of my shooting with a 6" GP 100, it's easy on lead and powder. I just use .357 brass for everything and load them light, 125g LFP at about 1050fps works well for me. There is a reloading supply shop 5 mins. from my house. Trail boss is a great powder to try also, I used to shoot cowboy and used it quite bit. I wouldn't worry too much about not using enough powder and that causing bullets to stick, I did a lot of messing around with very low charges of powders for cowboy shooting and you would have to really low for that to become much of an issue, but when loading for a revolver make sure as you are firing it all the cylinders go boom, if you hear one that sounds funny or weak stop and check for a stuck bullet, don't pull the trigger again until you do. I have had many stuck bullets due to the loading machine not charging the case, the primer will go off and the bullet will end up stuck in the barrel. Don't sweat the OAL too much.

 

[JeffHolt]

When I have any doubt with a particular bullet, load and seating depth I contact the Powder manufacturer. I do not email them- I call them. If they don't have an appropriate answer I select a different powder or projectile. The powder manufacturers (more than any other component maker) have the responsibility to keep the public safe.

I recently had such an exchange with Hodgdon concerning load data for using Berry's 200gr Plated HP. The Hodgdon website gives data for a 200 gr LSWC. The Wad Cutters are longer than the Berry's plated HP. I was going to seat the Berry plated bullet .09 deeper thereby keeping the case capacity the same but making the COL shorter.

The solution was to maintain the Correct COL and use near the Maximum load. The goal was to try to achieve a velocity near 900FPS.
Had I done it my way, or at somebody else's suggestion, I may have invited failure to feed issues.

What I don't do is solicit anonymous advice from the interenet, people can make mistakes. typo's and such. If you noticed, I did not give you a recipe!

Keep safe.
Jeff