CS40 added to the collection (last content added: alternate recoil springs tested)

[BLUEDOT37]

A couple weeks ago I went into a LGS looking to see if they had a 5" Springfield Armory Prodigy I was curious about but found a black CS40C in their used gun section instead.

Don't recall every coming across any CS40s before locally. This one came with two magazines & the factory box with the typical papers inside it.

Had a bunch of holster wear on the muzzle but a quick field stripping showed no noticeable wear on the rails or frame, lightly dirty & lubed.

The price was right so I brought it home.

It's EKW75xx serial number dates to Oct-1998.

Gave it a thorough inspection/cleaning/lube replacing a few consumable parts as needed.

The sideplate required removal & some straightening before re-installation.

These are actually 3.25" barrels but they're commonly called 3" barrels. (Kind of like the 4516s are actually 3.75" barrels but everybody calls them 3.5"). Actual rifled barrel length is 2.4", chamber shoulder to muzzle.

Chamfered the muzzle to give the rifling better presentation as it was uneven.

One thing I noticed is that the barrel does not have any freebore cut into it, unlike all my other 3rd Gens. The rifling tapers down to the leade at the chamber's shoulder but it lacks the smooth freebore typically cut out ~0.100" forward of the shoulder.

Anybody else notice this on theirs?

I've always loaded all of my 40 S&W handloads to 1.135", SAAMI max COAL", without issues, but most bullets won't pass the plunk test in this barrel because of the lack of freebore necessitating a shorter COAL" & a powder charge adjustment in it's ammo.

I loaded about (80) rounds of moderate handloads, with their COAL" adjusted accordingly, to range test in it. All shot well with no malfunctions. The 155gr XTPs grouped the best in my brief comparison.

My range trip was originally planned to chrono test some 45WSM & 45 Colt loads but I also passed some of the CS40's handloads thru the LabRadar beam as well & was pleased with their performance.

I have a Dave Manson .40 throater on the way so the next item on the agenda will be to add some freebore to the CS40's barrel so my existing handloads can properly plunk.

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-the chrono readings are in blue green on the right-
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[HOUSTON RICK]

The S&W semiauto CS series were ahead of their time, and it seems to me under rated, I know LEO's that used them for back up guns due to their accuracy and reliability. I hope yours serves you well.

 

[DUSTYDOGDAN]

Good find even with the wear.
I only have the CS45 and want to get the 9 and 40.
In fact the CS45 I have might have been my first 3RD Gen that started this madness of now having 38 of these S&W 3RD Gens that all started with walking into Cabelas gun library back in 2006.
I bought a 3913 Lady Smith and the CS45 within a few weeks back in 2006 when Cabelas opened up in my home town.
In the 1990's I didn't have enough money to buy any of them and lucky for me I started buying them before they got to the crazy price they are going for now. I hope you have fun with it!

 

[mauser9]

Smart buy! Don't believe they produced nearly as many blued models compared to the stainless CS series. Hope the price was fair as I have heard them going for over $600 lately. Glad I bought one back in 99 in 9MM stainless. Agree they might have been ahead of their time.

 

[Jeppo]

One thing I noticed is that the barrel does not have any freebore cut into it, unlike all my other 3rd Gens. The rifling tapers down to the leade at the chamber's shoulder but it lacks the smooth freebore typically cut out ~0.100" forward of the shoulder.

Anybody else notice this on theirs?

I’ll admit I’ve never paid attention as I don’t reload. I guess I’m good.

 

[raygixxer89]

I’ll admit I’ve never paid attention as I don’t reload. I guess I’m good.

Hmm, I'll have to check mine. I have the 9mm and the 40, just need to 45 to complete the CS collection. I'll let you know what I find, OP. If you don't hear from me, send me a message because I probably forgot.

 

[raygixxer89]

Ok, I checked mine and while it doesn't look as sharp as Jeppo's pistol, it's there. On mine, it looks like the rifling tapered down to the chamber.

 

[4T5GUY]

Ok, I checked mine and while it doesn't look as sharp as Jeppo's pistol, it's there.

Same here. I looked at mine and both barrels have freebore with tapered lands into it. Neither of mine look as sharp as Jeppo’s either, (said with a whining voice.)

I took pictures but it’s dark and you can’t really see. Not like Jeppo’s.

Jim

 

[Redcoat3340]

Nice pickup. I've got a 9 and 45 and this thread is going to cost me. How can I not have a 40? Guess I need to get out to more LGSs than I have been lately.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Here's Mine!

Mine is also the same EKW76 vintage as yours. It is new to me and I shot it for the first time today. It really does well with Hornady 180 grain Subsonic ammo.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

In fact the CS45 I have might have been my first 3RD Gen that started this madness of now having 38 of these S&W 3RD Gens that all started with walking into Cabelas gun library back in 2006.

In the 1990's I didn't have enough money to buy any of them and lucky for me I started buying them before they got to the crazy price they are going for now.

I was too busy with work & family back in the 90's, trying to keep up & keep ahead, when these came out that I missed them completely.

I got interested in them when I came across my first 3rd Gen at a LGS in a nearby small town. I actually wasn't into semi-autos much either, to be honest, but a pistol sitting in a display case, almost in the corner & initially uncalling made me look at it a second time.

The sales tag said it was an "850"? After some research & starting a thread asking about here I quickly found out it was an 845 Limited & just as quickly I purchased it!

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...36311-found-845-45-limited.html#post137446984

Yeah, crazy way to get started with 3rd Gens. A couple dozen purchases later I'm still finding ones I think I need.

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[BLUEDOT37]

I’ll admit I’ve never paid attention as I don’t reload. I guess I’m good.

Yes, that's the way all my other 3rd Gens look like. A fairly sharp transition of the rifling just in front of a definite smooth throat/freebore ahead of the chamber shoulder.

I do have one model, my 4040PD that doesn't have the obvious throat/freebore but the rifling is very shallowing & almost non-existent ahead of the chamber shoulder.

My Manson .40/10mm throater, with a solid pilot, came yesterday. A quick check determined it's pilot (.3888") was adequately smaller than the CS40's barrel bore (.3900") to turn freely.

The .45 throater I previously bought from them had no issues, in this regard, but the .35 throater, both with solid pilots too, did have a problem with (3) out of (8) 9mm barrels I have.

The bore of my CS9, 3913TSW & 3914DAO are just slightly smaller than the throater's pilot & can't be inserted. Fortunately they have throats/freebores like in Jeppo's picture & don't need any attention. Manson makes a removable pilot (sized to your spec) throater, or they can convert your solid pilot throater to a removable pilot, if the situation warrants.

My CSX however does not have any freebore in it & while the pilot does fits in the bore I am unable to perform any cutting on it because it's barrel has S&W's Armornite coating which is harder than the throater. Thank goodness the 3rd Gens are uncoated.

Bummer, I'll have to make sure I watch what handloads I use in the CSX as some bullets won't plunk in it requiring a shorter COAL" than what I've loaded everything else for.

I'll try to get some before & after pics of the CS40's barrel to share with you. I plan on doing the 4040PD barrel also to make it consistent with the others.

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[3rdgenfriend]

ENJOY your New To You CS40 !!

Great find !!! Looks like I have the brother to your CS40 which I picked up recently and close in S/N to yours. I was pleasantly surprised that mine was in better shape than the pictures showed like the one you have. It is an excellent shooter also. Congratulations !!

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Fixing the freebore/leade problem in the CS40

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Having received the ordered Manson 40/10 throater I next decided on a means to help facilitate the task & what dimension to use for the CS40's barrel.

Since the Zero 165gr & 180gr JHPs are the bullets I use the most for range & casual shooting, & their profiles (which are the same) are most prone to contacting the rifling in barrels with insufficient leade/freebore when seated out to SAAMI max COAL (1.135"), I made two "bullet gages" using the 165gr JHP bullets.

One I seated normally with the nose out (A). The other reversed with the nose in the case & it's base out (B).

To determine a logical real world seating depth for each gage I looked at my spec notes containing critical dimensions & clearances I measure for each new/used pistol I buy. (I found in the past this documentation usually ends up being useful later plus you can often find problems before shooting like barrel constrictions, B-C gap issues, chamber/throat issues, etc. Yes, I go a little overboard. )

I picked a 4013, a pre-rail 4013TSW & a pre-rail 4056TSW to use to arrive at a happy medium for the seating depths. The large frame 4013 had the most generous factory leade/freebore while the other two medium frame 40s were close on the tighter side with the 4056TSW a tad tighter.

While my leade/freebore measurements are repeatable there's some variance possible because the pin gages I use are precise in their diameters & uniformity but for some reason their lengths are not all cut perfectly square to their diameter which causes some variations when using them in this way. They weren't intended for this use since they're sold as diameter gages, not length gages but I have to use both aspects of the pin gages to calculate the final reading.

For gage (A) I went with a COAL of 1.145" (.010" over SAAMI max) which all three barrels plunked fine with. (The 4013 could plunk up to 1.223" before contacting the rifling! )

For gage (B) I decided on a COAL of 0.992" which leaves ~.151" of the bullet's base outside the case. Again the 4013 easily swallowed this length & the other two just clearing it.

The base on these Zero bullets have a fairly square corner, more so than other name brand bullets that I checked. I felt that was a beneficial asset here.

The bullets were initially seated in unprimed sized cases & taper crimped to remove any case flaring after partial seating. Then I slowly seated the bullets while checking COAL & testing in the three barrels until the desired measurement was reach & confirmed & taper crimped again.

The pics below show gage (B) fully seated in the 4013's chamber while in the CS40's chamber it's no where close to being seated due to the lack of any freebore.

I took pics of the CS40's chamber from a left & right angle to show how the leade/freebore looks. From the left angle you can see a strange cut/groove partially up the leade. This barrel definitely got gypped at checkout. Maybe because it was in the Value Series lane?

From both angles you can clearly see the rifling's leade (the cut angle) extends to the edge of the CS40's chamber shoulder. The factory cut 4013 pic shows a clear smooth freebore between the chamber shoulder & the start of the rifling's leade. All my 3rd Gens look like this with the exception of my 4040PD which is slightly less defined but still plunked these gages without any interference.

Finally at the workbench the CS40 barrel is secured horizontally, muzzle slightly down, in the padded vise & with plenty of cutting oil I slowly start cutting by hand. Manson says the throaters work best when they have to remove some throat diameter while being inserted, I suspect for alignment.

What you feel getting cut first is the throat's smooth resistance. Once you're thru the throat you're quickly into the rifling, cutting the leade angle which is definitely rougher on the hand & anything but smooth.

A pistol or barrel throater is slightly different than a revolver or cylinder throater. The pistol throater cuts the throat & leade while centered on the barrels bore with it's pilot. The revolver throater only has to cut the cylinder's throats while trying to keep centered on the exit throat. Neither touches or cuts into the chamber's existing dimensions.

Once finished the barrel was thoroughly cleaned of the cutting oil & given a light coat of preservative oil down the barrel.

The leade/freebore now measures .132" (from virtually nothing) & both gages plunk properly. The throat diameter changed from an unusually tight .3985" (no doubt because it really didn't have a throat due to the leade running to the shoulder) to .4025".

I hate having to load special ammo for a particular gun versus what it siblings get. Now I don't have to with the CS40 anymore.

Next stop the range to shoot some 1.135" handloads in it.

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[BLUEDOT37]

List of parts unique to the CS40

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I made a list of some of the unique to the CS40 parts that you might find needing replacing & what other models they have in common, if any.

Parts are getting harder to find. MidwayUSA still has some items but they're less & less. Most of the prices are from the old S&W Parts Catalog but some are from Midway's website.

I did some tests trying to find a substitution for the recoil spring. I'll post that here later.

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CS40S (stainless)
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Note#. . . PN# . . . . . Item Name
(1) . . . 263310000 RECOIL SPRING-INSIDE $3.26

(2) . . . 239760000 REAR SIGHT ASSY $14.99

(3) . . . 067670000 FIRING PIN $7.63

(3) . . . 101440000 FIRING PIN SPRING $0.51

(3) . . . 104470000 FRONT SIGHT $13.29

(1) . . . 263300000 GRIP $19.99

(1) . . . 263560000 GRIP PIN $2.29

(4) . . . 266240000 MAGAZINE FOLLOWER $5.99

(5) . . . 209060000 MAGAZINE SPRING $5.40

(8) . . . 239010000 MAGAZINE CATCH SPRING $2.29

(8) . . . 239090000 MAGAZINE CATCH NUT/BUTTON $5.49

(1) . . . 263370000 MAINSPRING $3.95

(3) . . . 108600000 SIDEPLATE ASSY $6.84

(3) . . . 230740000 SLIDE STOP ASSY $39.60

(6) . . . 266430000 MANUAL SAFETY BODY $57.76

(3) . . . 067670000 FIRING PIN $7.99

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CS40C (Charcoal)
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Note# . . . PN# . . . . . Item Name
(7) . . . 234200000 SIDEPLATE ASSY $6.84

(3) . . . 209910000 SLIDE STOP ASSY $39.60

(2) . . . 239790000 MANUAL SAFETY BODY ONLY $57.76

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Note#
1) . . unique to CS40-CS45
2) . . unique to CS40-CS45-457
3) . . common to other models also
4) . . unique to CS40 only
5) . . unique to CS40-4013-4014-4053-4054
6) . . unique to CS40S-CS45S
7) . . unique to CS40C-CS40D-CS45C-CS45D-4014-4054-457-457D
8) . . unique to CS40-CS45-CS9-410-457-457D-908-909-910

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[BLUEDOT37]

CS45 mags in the CS40

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One thing that has been pointed out previously about the CS40 & CS45s is that S&W did something with their mag wells that they didn't hardly do on any other regular production 3rd Gens, they are the same size, i.e. the magazines & mag wells' diameter dimensions are the same for the 40S&W & the 45ACP models.

Both of these CSs are on the large frame but S&W did not do the same thing with the large frame 4013 & its brother the 4516's magazines & mag well. The later are both on the large frame as well but their magazines are different & cannot be interchanged.

The 4013's mag is slightly thinner & won't stay latched in the 4516's larger mag well. I reluctantly had to acknowledge this when I converted one of my 4013's to a 1013 but along the way also tried making a 1016 by using the stainless steel lower of the 4516 with the 4013 upper, instead to the 4013's aluminum alloy lower. It just wasn't a reliable match.

The CS40 & CS45's magazine do fit in each other's mag well equally well (no pun ) though. I'd venture a guess they did it to save money since these were Value Series like pistols.

So externally they're identical with the exception of the mag lips that are slightly narrower for the 40 caliber CS40.

Internally the CS40 mag has a spacer insert (for both the width & depth differences between the cartridges) as well as a track in it, to guide & hold the top round, that fits into the case's extractor groove adding positive contact to it.

The two models have different followers as well.

Since the CS40 mags are fairly scarce this made me wonder if the CS45 mags might work in the CS40?

There are two specific types of these (6) round 45ACP magazines: one for the CS45 & another for the pre-rail 4513TSW / 4553TSWs.

The only difference is, besides the shape of some of their butt plates, is that the CS45 magazines have an indentation in the metal, at the top, to better hold the top round at the cartridge's extractor groove. The pre-rail 45 mags do not have this. (see pic below)

I took one of each of these 45ACP (6) round magazines to try when I fired it initially at the range & generally would call it successful, with one caveat.

I put several clip fulls of 40S&W handloads thru each type of (6) round 45ACP mags in my CS40 & didn't see any difference between the two types.

The 45ACP is a longer round than the 40S&W so the 45 mags do not have/need the spacer in them that the 40 mags have. This aspect didn't seem to be a problem in my limited testing.

What did happen, which is the same thing that happened when I tested the "1016 concept", is that once, on the last round of the magazine, the live round popped out of the magazine & onto the floor before it could be picked up by the slide & chambered.

I attribute this to the magazine lips being slightly wider in the 45 mag, & not retaining the top round as well, especially with the lesser mag spring tension on the last round, mixed with the slide-frame impact, than the fact that there's no spacer in the mag.

So I'd say for range or informal shooting the 45ACP (6) round mags would work if you wanted to save some wear & tear on your CS40 mags, from what I experienced, but of course you wouldn't want to purposely go to a gun fight with one of these inserted.

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PS: I added the "CS40 freebore - after" throater pic that I originally forgot & moved the chamfered muzzle pic to the first post.

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-the red line on the CS45 mag is where the indentation for the extractor groove is
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[BLUEDOT37]

Alternatives for the CS40's recoil spring

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Now that I have a CS40 I decided to see if any other recoil spring could be used in it. They have many parts unique to them & this is one of them.

No idea exactly how much use the recoil spring in my "new to me" CS40 has on it but the pistol seemed like it had more wear on the outside than the inside from what I observed when doing the refresh after I got it so I'm going to assume that the test numbers I got using it are typical values:
A= 8#, B= 14#, C= 19# of force. (see chart for explanations)

With those numbers as a baseline I tried a couple different choices of springs.

First a CS9 recoil spring. It's physically shorter & it's initial strength (A) is too weak (5#) so it's out.

2) Next the ISMI flat springs, made for Glocks, that we've used in 4013TSWs & others. I tried the GLC-18 & GLC-20 springs. They're way too long & by the time you cut them down to a length that they don't stack they're too weak. (stacking is when the slide's rearward movement is stopped by contact with the fully compressed & compacted coils of the too long spring rather than the slide contacting the frames abutment points first).

3) Next, the S&W dual/nested recoils spring for the 4013TSWs. I hoped there was promise in these but after shortening each spring, the inner then the outer spring until they didn't stack, they are marginal. Again the initial force (A) is low at 6# but the full force was good at 20#.

4) Next I tried using a different combination of springs in the dual/nested configuration by keeping the shortened inner (16 coils) spring from test #3 but using a shortened (13 coils) 4516-1 recoil spring as the outer spring. With stacking, the best it measured was (A) at 6# & (C) at 26#. I also tried a couple of other cut-down springs for longer barrels but same problem.

5) Lastly I tried the Wilson Combat 10SEN22 flat recoil spring for their 3.5" 1911 which can use 45ACP +P loads. Out of the box it measures 4.0" long but settles to 3.6" after use with an I.D. of .250" & an O.D. of .416" & has (22) coils. It compares favoribly with my used factory CS40's 3.25" length, .254" I.D., .420" O.D. and (18) coils.

Installed, & unaltered, it measures (A)= 10#, (B)=17#, & (C)= 19#. Again these compare well to my CS40s (A)=8#, (B)= 14#, & (C)= 19#. However there was some stacking with the 10SEN22 installed.

After cutting off one coil, then a second coil, it measured (A)= 8#, (B)= 15#, & (C)= 18#. The spring length is right on the edge of stacking. Visually the slide appears to stop at my reference mark for where the slide stops when it contacts the frame but sound & feel wise it's a close call. I'll leave it like this with the option to remove a half a turn later if needed.

At $10.95 plus shipping the Wilson Combat 10SEN22 seems the best option to use in the CS40 until a better choice comes along.

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Note: I've found that the same model# pistols don't always stack with the same length recoil spring. Little differences, mainly in the thickness of the slide's recoil spring housing, at the muzzle of the slide, varies in how much metal was removed inside of it at manufacture, so your pistol may need a longer or shorter recoil spring than mine did & not stack.

Also, I still have the cut-down dual-nested spring I tested in #3 above & I'm going to see how it performs next time I go to the range (along with the 10SEN22) as its full power strength was good & may still have promise.
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For clarification, the (A) and (C) condition readings in my tests below are fully a by-product of the recoil spring only; (A)= early partial force & (C)= full compressed force.

The (B) condition reading is also early partial recoil spring force but with the increase in force (over "A" reading) coming from the mainspring's force on the hammer against the slide.

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[JohnHL]

Thanks for the spring work, BLUEDOT!

Very informative.

John

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Alternate recoil spring choices for the CS40

...I still have the cut-down dual-nested spring I tested in #3 above & I'm going to see how it performs next time I go to the range (along with the 10SEN22) as its full power strength was good & may still have promise.

Went to the range today & took some time to try these two different recoil springs out in my CS40.

I loaded up (50) rounds using Zero 165gr JHP, LongShot @ 7.4gr= 1045mv/400me with a COAL= 1.135" & CCI-500 primers to use for the comparison. It's a moderate load.

First I shot (15) rounds with the factory recoil spring installed & noted where the empties landed.

Next I installed the cut-down Wilson Combat 10SEN22 flat wire spring & then the cut-down S&W dual/nested spring set, firing (15) round with each & noting where the ejected cases landed for each.

I was pleased to find that there was no material difference in the pattern or distance that the brass ejected to, for either, compared to the factory recoil spring.

When I first tested their forces on the scale (post #17) these two were found to have an initial force (A) that was slightly lower than the factory spring, which at first thought seemed detrimental, even though their full force (C) was good.

In thinking more about this I realized that, while this test condition (A) is noteworthy, since this pistol is hammer fired this condition will never occur during normal firing as the hammer will always be applying force against the slide by the mainspring & the (B) reading is more meaningful for initial force.

The (B) force has averaged 6-7# more than (A) force for this pistol which meant these two spring were very close to the factory spring's (B) force & their (C) forces as good or better than the factory spring making them good candidates for ammo testing.

The as-tested total coil counts for each spring after modifying is:

- Wilson Combat 10SEN22 flat spring = (19) full coils

- 108670000, S&W inner nested spring = (16) full coils

- 108660000, S&W outer nested spring = (13) full coils

Remember, always keep one end of the spring as a closed loop end (factory double coil) & the other as the open end to remove coils from.

Also, the closed end goes against the guide rod's flange & the open end of the spring towards the muzzle.

Again, your particular CS40 (or CS45) may require plus or minus half a coil different cut-off than mine did because of small differences in the factory's machining of the slide's recoil spring housing boss.

I feel confident in using either one of these alternate recoil springs going forward in my CS40 should the factory recoil springs remain unavailable.

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[BLUEDOT37]

My CS40 had quit a bit of holster wear on the slide's muzzle & dust shield when I got it.

I bought this touch-up paint, Birchwood Super Black (Flat Black) & tried it on the front of the dust cover.

I didn't try it on the slide because it's more of a charcoal color -vs- the dust cover's flat black.

It gave a reasonably good match with the factory's color.

Now we'll see how well it sticks to the metal.

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