Cylinder lock up and safety question

[ryanc68]

When the hammer is cocked on my new PC revolver, there is a small amount of play on my new 686-6. I'm worried about the safety of this gun, should I worry or not? My other 686-6 has absolutely no play on the cylinder when the hammer is cocked and ready to fire. This is a brand new performance center 686 with 2.5" barrel. 2 weeks old!!


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[tj1371x]

Both my 686+ PC snub and 686+ 6" model have a very small amount of play when locked up. I can't really measure it, but it's too tiny to concern me. I've got a little over a thousand rounds through the 6" model without any issues, the snub is brand new though.


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[ryanc68]

Yes, my 6 inch also has no play at all. Just don't understand why a brand new PC snub has not been built as well. Just my observation.


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[71firebird400]

The S&W design relies on that play to align the cylinder and the forcing cone as well as be gentler on the bolt and hand. It is not built poorer; it is perfectly fine. Even a Korth and Manurhin, which are both modeled after S&W's, have rotational play in the cylinder at lock up.

If you want a solid lockup you'll need an old Colt, or Freedom Arms.

 

[ryanc68]

Well I'm feeling a little better knowing that seems to be the norm. But don't you think the cylinder should be locked before the we drops? So a little play when the cylinder is locked I can understand, but when 3 out of 7 times the cylinder is not locking in the notches is not normal at all.


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[Neumann]

A small amount of rotational play in the locked cylinder is normal, whether or not the trigger is pulled. The fit of the lock in the notch, and the lock in the frame will allow for a couple of thousandths play, which is easily noticeable. That play keeps the bullet from exerting excessive lateral force on the lock and hand as it enters the forcing cone.

By design, the hand does not press on the cylinder once lockup is achieved. Colt revolvers are different, because pressing on the trigger exerts upward force on the hand, pressing the cylinder to one side of the lock. It is no coincidence that Colt revolvers require more frequent (and skilled) tune-ups.

The most important thing with a S&W revolver is that lockup occurs before the hammer drops in DA mode, and before the hammer is fully cocked in SA. This should be tested using your thumb and fingers to resist rotation of the cylinder while slowly cocking the (empty) revolver or pulling the trigger.

The revolver is more forgiving in normal operation (cylinder not restricted), because inertia will usually carry the cylinder into lockup even if the mechanism is not properly timed.

 

[Hapworth]

Well I'm feeling a little better knowing that seems to be the norm. But don't you think the cylinder should be locked before the we drops? So a little play when the cylinder is locked I can understand, but when 3 out of 7 times the cylinder is not locking in the notches is not normal at all.

Might be talking at cross purposes here. I took your original post to mean that the cylinder when in lock up still has a touch of rotational play in it, in which case 71firebird400 nails it: perfectly normal and actually preferred.

But your last post seems to say that the cylinder isn't actually locking up (that is, the cylinder stop sliding entirely into the cylinder notch) by the time the hammer falls. If that's the case, you have short carry up, a timing problem that should be corrected.

 

[ryanc68]

Exactly, that is what happens on a brand new 686-6 X7 performance model. I apologize for not explaining it correctly the first time. Is the timing issue something that is easy to fix? I'm surprised smith QC let this go to retail store in the condition. Now I'm so careful to check every little detail before I get a Smith. Never had any QC with any other firearms I had bought in the 20+ years collection of everything that's out there. I wonder if it's an issue with models that have more then 6 in the cylinder because the 6 shooter I picked up is NICE and tight. I was so close to buying the new 627 as well but noticed it was a new PC and decided to wait. I have to say if Smith and Wesson takes 3 tries to fix this, I will never buy another PC model ever. I think maybe I will stick to lord models or only the 6 shooters.


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[Hapworth]

Exactly, that is what happens on a brand new 686-6 X7 performance model...Is the timing issue something that is easy to fix?

If under slow single and double action dry fire -- obviously, with a double-checked empty revolver -- the hammer is falling before the cylinder locks up, that is indeed a timing issue and is generally fairly easy to fix with either a new hand or ratchet or both. This is something I'd request S&W do under warranty and on their shipping dime.

 

[ryanc68]

Smith has it for warranty work, let's see how they do. I'm just counting the days like the days I was counting to pick it up. All that waiting and having to send it for repairs is driving me nuts. Unhappy I am!!


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[ryanc68]

Just got off the phone with smith support, and nothing has been done yet!! And they can't commit to sending a new one. This is not the way to offer service in any business. The lady on the phone was very nice unlike the guy I spoke to last week. She said she will talk with the supervisor and let me know by tomorrow so let's see how they handle this.


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[Boogsawaste]

How long has the gun been there? Warranty work seems to be hovering around the 2 week mark, give or take. Non warranty work, now that's another story...

 

[ryanc68]

This just tells me they have a lot of returns!!! Which makes me worry about how I'm going to be treated if I have any other issues with smiths. Funny they are asking me for tracking number now, this is really discouraging.


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[71firebird400]

No need to panic, S&W will take care of you. I realize patience has seemed to disappear in the electronic age, but the problem is only as big as you allow it to be. Like others have mentioned it sounds like you are describing two different issues.

1. Rotational play in the cylinder AFTER it is locked. This is not a problem.

2. Failure to lock up the cylinder before the hammer is dropped. This is a big problem. However, based on your terminology (using the word "loose") I'm not sure if this is what you're describing. The gun is either locked or it isn't; using the word "loose" makes me think you're still talking about the rotational play described in Issue No. 1. If the gun is not locked prior to the hammer dropping you will be able to either turn it to the previous notch (if timing is very bad) or turn it to the proper notch where the bolt will drop and make a noticeable "click".

Please try to describe the issue you're experiencing as detailed as you can, as there is some confusion over what is happening.

 

[sac-gunslinger]

Ryan, chill. This is a mechanical device and, as such, has some pretty broad tolerances in assembly while still being perfectly functional.

I worked for a chap one time who thought aeronautical engineers did not understand tolerances, too sloppy he maintained. He insisted I build an engine for him with all tolerances at FAA-acceptable minimums. The engine would not turn over until I swapped out some parts. He went away mumbling.

Go look at some of the still-serviceable M&Ps at the LGS and note how "loose" they seem to be.

"A man convinced against his will is unconvinced still..."

 

[158Grain]

I had to send in my SSR when new for a canted barrel. I know the waiting sucks and believe me, I was very anxious to get my new revolver back in my hands too. Here is my advice, RELAX! As noted above, S&W has about the best warranty for their products and will take care of you. S&W has been noted several times to take care of a gun for the 3rd or 4th owner, when they have no responsibility to do so. Go find some 357 and take out your 6" 7 shooter and have some fun. A few weeks will go by quickly. I'm still jealous that others can find and purchase the new PC 686 snubby. S&W will make it right and you will have a perfect wheel gun once returned.

 

[Boogsawaste]

When I mentioned about the return time being 2 weeks for warranty and longer for non warranty, I wasn't meaning it as a negative. Just what you could possibly expect. ALL manufacturers of firearms and ammunition are running behind these days. It seems the firearm industry has had a boom in sales and companies are struggling to keep up. Not to mention s&w went through a computer change last year and that slowed them down a lot and they still haven't recovered yet as far as getting caught back up.

But as said above, don't worry and they will take care of you. Your gun will be back before you know it and you'll forget all about this.

 

[ryanc68]

You guys are much more patient than I am, and thanks for the kind words. The store I bought it from decided to give me a full refund and I've decided to get the 4" 686. I'm going to hold off purchasing PC models for now. This 686 cylinder sure locks up tight with very little play!! My humble opinion is oldies seem to be better.


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[158Grain]

So S&W will return the repaired PC to you upon completion of repairs even though your no longer the owner...? I think you should have waited until the PC was back in your hands before doing anything. I predict a mess is headed your way. Hopefully it all works out

 

[nawilson]

By design, the hand does not press on the cylinder once lockup is achieved. Colt revolvers are different, because pressing on the trigger exerts upward force on the hand, pressing the cylinder to one side of the lock. It is no coincidence that Colt revolvers require more frequent (and skilled) tune-ups.

Is this why Colt triggers stack?