DEFACED AND MISSING SERIAL NUMBERS

[Kenny D]

I have seen this come up numerous times and I realize that it is against the law to have a hand gun with a defaced or missing serial number but.................. Does anyone on the Forum know of an instance when the government actually seized a hand gun because of this and particularly one that is over 75 years old?

I have a 4th change Model of 1905 that shipped in 1925. Probably the first owner stamped GC {partial S & W serial # as last two digits missing} 4294. The barrel and the cylinder do have the complete serial number 5095XX on them. Inside the crane there us only an assembly number.

Does anyone seriously believe that the government is going to come after this ancient revolver unless it was involved in a crime?

I have taken it to a gunsmith as I wanted it checked out before shooting it. Their only question was "Would you be willing to sell it?'

 

[Cornhusker]

If I understand correctly, guns made before 1968 didn't require serial numbers.

 

[Absalom]

.....
I have a 4th change Model of 1905 that shipped in 1925. Probably the first owner stamped GC {partial S & W serial # as last two digits missing} 4294. The barrel and the cylinder do have the complete serial number 5095XX on them. Inside the crane there us only an assembly number....

This horse has been beaten to death multiple times here, and a search should provide hours of entertaining reading. I would, however, like to understand what exactly you're describing as pertaining to the butt serial. Any chance of a picture?

 

[Wiregrassguy]

IMO, BATFE isn't going to come looking for that gun...unless they know you have it or you are into something shady and they search for other evidence. If you get stopped with it in your possession, the local police/sheriff may confiscate it if they suspect the SN has been altered. But, defacing is a federal crime, unless SC has specific laws on the books.

My suggestion is to have someone either stamp or engrave the SN on the left side of the grip frame. A gunsmith might do it...or a pawn/jewelry shop. That should bring it into compliance. You could always call BATFE and ask.

 

[gmborkovic]

Yes I believe they would. A new agent will follow the letter of the law.
The gun is bad MoJo and will bring a lot of un-necessary grief and put you on the Radar. I have been doing guns since the mid 60s and never had one. My advice, I have none. Wait till some one comes along with personal experience. Best

 

[ken158]

As noted, a gun made prior to 1968 is not required to have a serial number.

 

[Trooperdan]

As noted, a gun made prior to 1968 is not required to have a serial number.

I believe there is a little "gotcha" in this; True, guns prior to '68 were not required to have a serial number BUT, if it did have a number it is illegal to possess if that number is removed or obliterated.

 

[Art Doc]

As long as it didn't have one in the first place. Many people do not understand the GCA 68 on serial numbers. Serials were not required until 1968 but if a gun had one, no matter how old it is, it becomes contraband if defaced.

No, cops don't have time to come looking for you. But if they become aware of the gun it will be confiscated. Happened to a friend about 35 years ago. He bought a pistol and later realized the serial had been polished off. He asked the police about it and they took it.

Any gunsmith who keeps a gun overnight must log it in his bound book. Any smith who takes in a gun with defaced serial and returns it to the customer is an idiot. He's looking for trouble from ATF.

 

[44wheelman]

I believe there is a little "gotcha" in this; True, guns prior to '68 were not required to have a serial number BUT, if it did have a number it is illegal to possess if that number is removed or obliterated.

This sounds accurate.

Nobody is going to come looking for it, but I wouldn't enjoy keeping it in my house.

Ahhh, I got interrupted while typing, now my post says what Mr SP said.

 

[gmborkovic]

Hold de phone, how do you buy a gun with no serial number?
Are you buying a vehicle with no VIN or title? Yea some 22 rifles did not have Sns. But somebody post a list of handguns with no Sns. I want an education. Dont want to start a fire fight.

 

[jimmyj]

"Barrel and cylinder has the correct serial number" have someone stamp the complete serial number on the butt

 

[JayCeeNC]

I have confiscated guns during drug and gambling searches when the serial number had been obviously ground off. Violation of N.C. General Statute 14-160.2.
Don't recall the outcome of the cases, but they didn't get their gun back.

 

[wogentry]

I have seen FFLs and LE mistake the assembly number in the yoke cut out as the serial number with the older revolvers. I was once offered a military 1917 that had the markings ground off the butt yet it came back clean when LE ran a check on it. Everyone assumed because it had numbers stamped on the frame that must be the serial numbers. They were quite surprised when I explained how it went with S&Ws .Needless to say I passed on that one. Don't know the final outcome . Have seen FFLs who didn't take the grips (rubber) off of an old M&P 38 and logged it in under the assembly number. Gun probably had a serial number but it might not of either.

 

[DWalt]

So long as the gun is not an Antique, as defined in GCA-1968, removal, alteration, or defacement of a manufacturer or importer-stamped SN renders the gun illegal. No one will come looking for it. However, if you are for any of numerous reasons found with it - such as if your residence is searched under warrant, you are arrested with it in your possession, etc. , at a minimum it will be seized. Depending upon circumstances, you could be facing more serious charges. The advice to have someone re-stamp the SN on the grip frame is not advice I would follow, although it might work. But if that is discovered, you are now a participant in a conspiracy to evade the law. BATFE does have a legal procedure for assigning new serial numbers in such cases, but it is far from simple and 99% of the time is frankly not worth the hassle and risk.

 

[reddog81]

Hold de phone, how do you buy a gun with no serial number?
Are you buying a vehicle with no VIN or title? Yea some 22 rifles did not have Sns. But somebody post a list of handguns with no Sns. I want an education. Dont want to start a fire fight.

I doubt there is an extensive list out there. Most of the stuff manufactured without a serial number was cheapo junk. I'm guessing leaving the serial number off was seen as a cost cutting measure. All the quality manufacturers have had serial numbers since well before 1968 - Colt, S&W, Winchester, etc.

Individuals can manufacture guns without a serial number as long as it's for personal use and not resale. It's fairly common to buy an 80% receiver and do this. I believe most people end up putting a serial number on the gun since it's kind of odd to have a gun without a serial number...

Back to the OP - Is the government going to ever come after you? Probably not unless you go around posting about it on the internet... I'd be afraid of ever leaving my house with a no serial number gun. I wouldn't ever bring it to a range. I'm guessing most gunsmiths won't even want a no serial number S&W in their shop.

 

[DWalt]

Every gun I have ever seen without a manufacturer-stamped SN has been a lower-priced shotgun or .22 rifle. Not necessarily cheapo junk, but not top-of-the-line either. If they were made prior to the enactment of GCA-68, they remain perfectly legal (at least under Federal law).

I have one military rifle with the SN stamped in arabic characters, which the importer also engraved with the corresponding western numbers. I suspect the arabic characters alone would be OK, as it is clearly identifiable as a SN.

 

[BibleronKJV]

For the 1905 in question here is something that often goes unnoticed. The gun's serial number is stamped on the crane (visible through a charge hole in the cylinder) and the crane also has an assembly number which should agree with the assembly number on the crane cutout on the frame. This means that the frame's serial number is preserved through the assembly numbers as long as the assembly numbers match. Ron

 

[old bear]

I believe there is a little "gotcha" in this; True, guns prior to '68 were not required to have a serial number BUT, if it did have a number it is illegal to possess if that number is removed or obliterated.
__________________

We Have a winner here....

 

[DWalt]

For the 1905 in question here is something that often goes unnoticed. The gun's serial number is stamped on the crane (visible through a charge hole in the cylinder) and the crane also has an assembly number which should agree with the assembly number on the crane cutout on the frame. This means that the frame's serial number is preserved through the assembly numbers as long as the assembly numbers match. Ron

An interesting theory, but I doubt it would fly in front of a hostile Judge. The law mentions nothing about assembly numbers.

 

[steelslaver]

Ah, but the government can not find you guilty in EX POST FACTO

EX POST FACTO, contracts, crim. law. This is a technical expression, which signifies, that something has been done after another thing, in relation to the latter.
2. An estate granted, may be made good or avoided by matter ex post facto, when an election is given to the party to accept or not to accept. 1 Co. 146.
3. The Constitution of the United States, art. 1, sec. 10, forbids the states to pass any ex post facto law; which has been defined to be one which renders the act punishable in a manner in which it was not punishable when it was committed. 6 Cranch, 138. This definition extends to laws passed after the act, and affecting a person by way of punishment of that act, either in his person or estate. 3 Dall. 386; 1 Blackf. Ind. R. 193 2 Pet. U. S. Rep. 413 1 Kent, Com. 408; Dane's Ab. Index, h.t.

In other words they would have to prove that the serial number was defaced after 1968. Plus, prior to 1968 you could legally remove a serial number and restamp it in another location if you waned. So, if the serial number was restamped even saying that the gun was illegal because it had no original serial number or an altered one would be a no go. As a mater of fact the gun has always had a serial number, just not the original one. Prior to 1968 there was no law against changing serial numbers either. I believe, as does my lady lawyer (we had this discussion) that the government would have a very difficult time prosecuting you on a gun like this manufactured prior to 1968. It might be a hassle, but unless they could prove that the alteration happened after 1968 you would win out in the end. I would get grips that covered the butt and KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT.