Did they ever paint Victories?

[Alpo]

British Enfields, during the war, were painted black, instead of being blued. WAR FINISH.

They ever do that to Victories?

Guy on another board has one. US PROPERTY marked, 38 S&W. But he said it had a thick coat of black paint on it.

Got me puzzled.

 

[Inusuit]

No clue

I don't know about S&W Victory models and whether they were ever painted from the factory. But I once bought a 20 ga Stevens 311 double barrel that had been painted black- stock, action, barrels. Thick paint as if someone had dipped in a barrel. I bought it cheap and it cleaned up to nice shotgun.

 

[Absalom]

Since you haven't seen the gun, the guy's definition of a "thick coat of black paint" is open to definition. This is a BSR in .38 S&W. The factory certainly didn't paint them, but applied a phosphate finish. The British war-time authorities are unlikely to have painted any upon receipt just for the fun of it. What happened to the guns after the war in various Commonwealth countries before they were re-imported here is full of endless possibilities. There are certainly lots of refinished ones.

 

[DWalt]

During WWII (and afterward) the British used a black stove paint (called Suncorite) on small arms of their own manufacture, and many Enfield service revolvers, Enfield rifles, STEN guns, and BREN guns have it. Sometimes revolvers are stamped "wartime finish". Quick, cheap, and apparently it worked OK. The use of black paint on guns by the British army is an old story - they painted their muskets with black paint (wood and all) during the Crimean War to make them less visible to the Russians.

Back about 2 years ago, there was a mention about a pre-Victory with a Suncorite finish in the Victory thread:

"938830 5 inch , 38 S&W ctg. Suncorite finish. Gun is loaded with markings. Butt is marked with Canadian C with Broad Arrow, flaming bomb, and P.. Near grip hump on right is FTR, not dated. Curious mark shown in my photo above trigger guard on right that is somewhat similar to the Suncorite finished gun on page 110 of Charles Pate's book. This mark possibly was added after the Suncorite finish as the paint looks chipped by the marking. All serial nos. match including the smooth walnut grips. I thought this surprising on an FTR gun! No US property mark."

 

[senecaap]

Doubtful. They should have left S&W finished. Buy never underestimate the perceived abilities of the Bubba Craftsman armed with Krylon and a beer buzz.

 

[Absalom]

During WWII (and afterward) the British used a black stove paint (called Suncorite) on small arms of their own manufacture, and many Enfield service revolvers, Enfield rifles, STEN guns, and BREN guns have it. Sometimes revolvers are stamped "wartime finish". Quick, cheap, and apparently it worked OK. The use of black paint on guns by the British army is an old story - they painted their muskets with black paint (wood and all) during the Crimean War to make them less visible to the Russians.

Back about 2 years ago, there was a mention about a pre-Victory with a Suncorite finish in the Victory thread:

"938830 5 inch , 38 S&W ctg. Suncorite finish. Gun is loaded with markings. Butt is marked with Canadian C with Broad Arrow, flaming bomb, and P.. Near grip hump on right is FTR, not dated. Curious mark shown in my photo above trigger guard on right that is somewhat similar to the Suncorite finished gun on page 110 of Charles Pate's book. This mark possibly was added after the Suncorite finish as the paint looks chipped by the marking. All serial nos. match including the smooth walnut grips. I thought this surprising on an FTR gun! No US property mark."

So assuming the OP's quoted owner's "black paint" is Suncorite, this all fits with a post-war re-finish. The clear implication of Pate's caption is that the FTR re-work was post-war, and the re-finish on the BSR in the quote above apparently included the removal of the US PROPERTY stamp, as I am not aware of any .38 S&W guns that shipped unstamped, especially in view of all the other standard stamps being present.

 

[DWalt]

"...quote above apparently included the removal of the US PROPERTY stamp..."

The pre-Victory in the earlier citation (938830) never had a United States Property stamping, so there was nothing to remove.

 

[Absalom]

"...quote above apparently included the removal of the US PROPERTY stamp..."

The pre-Victory in the earlier citation (938830) never had a United States Property stamping, so there was nothing to remove.

Oops, missed that.

 

[DWalt]

When the United States Property stamping began is uncertain. Some from late 1941 are alleged to be stamped. Pate's book is vague in dating and states that property stamping was not used on some (military?) revolvers from 10/41 until 4/42. To me, that means that military production during that time span may or may not have the property stamping. In the past I have invited anyone having reliable dating on the onset of property stamping to submit information, but I don't think anyone did. I can assume only that property stamping on military revolvers shipped in 4/42 and later was standard. Prior to that, it was iffy.

 

[Alpo]

So are y'all saying that guns, made for and sent to, England, were marked US PROPERTY?

I thought US PROPERTY 38 S&Ws were stateside DOD guard guns.

 

[Skeetr57]

The early BSR guns were bought and paid for by the British, and were never US Government owned, so would have no property stamps.

 

[DWalt]

So are y'all saying that guns, made for and sent to, England, were marked US PROPERTY?

I thought US PROPERTY 38 S&Ws were stateside DOD guard guns.

Lend-Lease revolvers, at least after the late 1941-early 1942 period, which went to the British Commonwealth were stamped United States Property, and later, U. S. Property. DSC guns (stateside use) were not given any property stampings at the time of manufacture.

 

[deadin]

IIRC the Lee Enfield No.4 Mk.1 made by Savage for the Brits had the U.S. Property marking. (Lend Lease again..)

 

[JeepRacer]

This is very interesting. Thanks to all that posted here.

 

[JSR III]

Not painted by S&W but in 70 years since the war years, who knows what could have happened to one gun???

 

[GypsmJim]

I have a British Enfield revolver that had an ugly black finish. It was so ugly I decided to remove it. Underneath it was blued.

I also have an 8mm Spanish Mauser that had all the metal painted black, and the stock was painted brown. Sloppy, there was black paint on the brown and brown paint on the black. Got it for $16, so it was no loss in my mind to strip the paint. Undeneath the metal had a deep rich bluing in perfect condition, and the stock was a beautifully grained dark walnut. It also had British proof marks. Why they had a Mauser is beyond me.

 

[murphydog]

I have seen painted Victory Models but I suspect this may have been a field expedient procedure, as they were "Black Magic" (Parkerized) from the factory.

There are references to S & W .38 S & W caliber revolvers being used stateside during WW II, but I have not seen one. There are documented US military contract revolvers of other brands in this chambering, so it is possible (meaning ammunition must have been available).

 

[Absalom]

So are y'all saying that guns, made for and sent to, England, were marked US PROPERTY?

I thought US PROPERTY 38 S&Ws were stateside DOD guard guns.

And just to clarify, the reason for the US PROPERTY stamp on lend-lease guns as explained by DWalt was the fiction that these were only "loaned" to Britain and were US property which was to be returned, at a time when it was considered not yet politically palatable to openly admit that the US was going to end up paying for defeating the Nazis. And later, nobody bothered changing or deleting the marking.

 

[opoefc]

Black painted BSR revolvers are known to Victory collectors. I had several in my collection over the years. Whether they were Suncorite, or not. I don't recall, however the black paint was applied over the S&W "Black Magic" finish. It was once though that the British " Home Guards" were issued these black painted revolvers, however I think that was assumed incorrectly because some of the early examples had Home Guard unit markings. Ed.

 

[Absalom]

Black painted BSR revolvers are known to Victory collectors. I had several in my collection over the years. Whether they were Suncorite, or not. I don't recall, however the black paint was applied over the S&W "Black Magic" finish. It was once though that the British " Home Guards" were issued these black painted revolvers, however I think that was assumed incorrectly because some of the early examples had Home Guard unit markings. Ed.

With your testimonial and the other evidence, it's obvious that the black-painted pre-V and V-BSR's are a thing. The British may on occasion be odd, but they're not idiots, so applying black paint over a perfectly good phosphate factory finish on just delivered guns during wartime seems illogical; especially in connection with the FTR stamp on the pre-Victory gun above and the gun pictured in Pate's book, I think the working assumption that the black paint, most likely Suncorite, was part of a post-war refurbishing makes the most sense unless convincing evidence emerges that would indicate otherwise.