Disappointed with the 340 scandium

[artu44]

An old range buddy of mine since late sixties in the meanwhile became a gun authority and a well known gun magazines article writer. This time he had to test a new .357 Fiocchi ammo, the Top Defence line Black Mamba (I wonder why they use always only silly names for sale appeal). After a couple of sessions he realized cylinder start to disappear as it would have been melted and gauged by burning scandium particles. Pics show it better than words. In the first, the ammo box, the muzzle blast and that nice firework like burning scandium (I suppose).
Obviously he wrote S&W to explain the trouble and they told him " Too lightweight bullet".
Is there anybody can add more?

 

[s&wchad]

Don't loan guns to your buddy.

Maybe that's why they put the warning in all cap's on the side of the barrel.

I will add that you can't use anything abrasive on the cylinder to clean it.

 

[Loco Weed]

Not supposed to be shooting 110 gr bullets -- barrel is marked 125 gr or heavier. All the sparks are probably coming from the titanium cylinder, not the scandium frame. The more it is shot in that condition the worse the problem is going to get.

 

[Dale53]

I believe that there is a limit to nearly everything. In my opinion, the S&W 642 represents the lower weight limit for a .38 Special revolver for several reasons. Reasonable wear and reasonable recoil are two that come to mind. The alloy frame with a steel cylinder is light ENOUGH for me and is totally practical. Those pictures illustrate it much better than I could state it regarding the use of a titanium cylinder - too light and not particularly durable.

I am not a particular fan of "trick" bullets either. A good 158 gr lead Hollow Point with a Plus P load is enough for me.

Every body has their opinion and that is mine. Kind of like the artistic term "the golden mean"...

Dale53

 

[Smee78]

Wow what a pic.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

WOW!!!! Can you get him to keep shooting it to see how much more he can eat away the cylinder???

 

[samIam]

Maybe that's why they put the warning in all cap's on the side of the barrel.

Have to agree with S&W chad,Kinda like taking the family sedan to the local dirt track,then wondering why all the shocks and springs are bent and broken.

 

[pinkymingeo]

I have thousands of rounds through my Ti/scan pocket guns without a hiccup, and have no doubt they're much, much more durable than Airweights. I'm not sure you can wear one out through normal shooting. My understanding is that 110gr bullets are not long enough to seal the b/c gap in the instant that the cartridge is at max pressure, which allows plasma cutting of the cylinder face and forcing cone. Hot gasses at tremendous pressure. Just read the manual and do what S&W suggests. The guns will last forever.

 

[j2k22]

I have the same effects on my 340 cylinder- got careless and shot a bunch of old 110 gr SuperVel through it one day, found the cylinder looking just like the pictures. Not a huge deal- it has run flawlessly ever since. If I am paying attention, I only shoot 158gr loads, but I have so much old ammo that is out of the original boxes that sometimes a light bullet gets fired.
The pistol still does what I hired it to do- carry light and shoot hard.
Love it!

 

[Spotteddog]

The magic combination of short, jacketed and light bullets rears it's ugly head once again. Everybody does remember don't they? How a larger charge of powder is always needed for lighter bullets. Add the shorter bullet length not able to span the forcing cone cylinder gap during transition and SHA-ZAM. Light show, and metal goes bye bye.

 

[allglock]

Anyone think that would happen with .38s? in 110 gr.?
I thought the bullet weight had to do with the bullets loosening while shooting.

 

[Spotteddog]

IMHO?
I've specifically never run 110/125's in .357 out of a K because of it. In a .38 +P 110/125 it would be propellant dependent out of a Ti J. There are too many good loadings available that are within the guns parameters, to risk using something capable of irreparable damage. Again, JOMO?

 

[Hook686]

Would this surprise me with 110 grain bullets ?

No. I am aware that 110 grain bullet loadings have been noted to flamecut the top strap on 686 revolvers. I really do not see this as anything new. I never saw such a photograph of this occuring with a Sc-Ti handgun though. Quite enlightening. Nice photo. I just wonder how many shots to get such a good photo. After seeing the results once, I would have stopped and unloaded.

 

[Papa]

There is a reason for the warning on the side of the barrel.

 

[artu44]

Would this surprise me with 110 grain bullets ?

No. I am aware that 110 grain bullet loadings have been noted to flamecut the top strap on 686 revolvers. I really do not see this as anything new. I never saw such a photograph of this occuring with a Sc-Ti handgun though. Quite enlightening. Nice photo. I just wonder how many shots to get such a good photo. After seeing the results once, I would have stopped and unloaded.

Just to have some more tips, this is the correspondance between my buddy and S&W.

"Dear Sirs,
I was at the range to take pictures of muzzle flashes, shooting with the new line of Fiocchi “Black Mamba” defense cartridges (.380 Auto, 9x21, .40 S&W, .38 Spl, .357M and .45 ACP calibers).
To test the .38 and .357 caliber ammunition, I used my “old” S&W 340 PD.

The GFL Black Mamba .357 rounds are loaded with 110 grain bullets, and I was aware of the warning that “no less than 120 grs” ammunition should be used with this revolver, but I guessed that few rounds would be well tolerated by the handgun.

The attached Pic #1 shows the very FIRST round of GFL Black Mamba .357 Magnum - 110 grs.: an enormous shower of white sparks from the cylinder gap.
I checked the digital pictures only later on my PC, and in the meantime many shooters on the range wanted to try the little revolver and so a total of 34 rounds were fired.
After the shooting, routine cleaning the revolver, I found that the titanium cylinder surface was vastly damaged (Pic #2), and the erosion, as you can see in the picture #1, had begun with the very first round!
The revolver was purchased in 2003, but was used sparingly (about 500 rounds of .38 Spl Wad Cutter, Standard and + P, but no more than 10-15 .357 Magnum rounds).

Can you please give me some insight on why this level of damage has occurred to the handgun? A bad surface treatment of my 340 PD may be the reason of the damage I have witnessed, or ALL titanium cylinders are so “soft” that they cannot withstand 34 rounds of .357 Magnum ammunition with a standard 110 grain bullet?

Consider that the GFL Black Mamba loading is well within CIP specs and reportedly have had no problem in any other commercial handgun."

S&W answered

"Hi. the reason why we recommend you don't shoot .357 magnums under 120 grain in that gun is because the quick burning powder that is associated with the lighter grain bullets presents the possibility of eroding the face of the titanium cylinder. This only applies to the .357 magnum round, below 120 grain is fine for the .38 special."

 

[Spotteddog]

Well,
Then I feel I have and adequate amount of safety margin in my 342PD.
Never running anything lighter than a 150 grain hard cast lead full wad cutter. And most times running a 158 LSWCHP G/C +P.

 

[XTrooper]

...........I was aware of the warning that “no less than 120 grs” ammunition should be used with this revolver, but I guessed that few rounds would be well tolerated by the handgun.

It's obvious he "guessed" wrong, but he did learn a valuable lesson. Warnings apply to EVERYONE including gun magazine writers.

Can you please give me some insight on why this level of damage has occurred to the handgun?

This is an easy one. Because he disregarded the damned warning prominently displayed on the revolver!

Personally, I would have been embarrassed to send such a letter to the factory and wouldn't have been nearly so polite in my answer to one.

 

[s&wchad]

Don’t put bio-diesel in your Ferrari

Owners Manual:
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/other/S&W_Revolver_Manual.pdf
.
(From Pg. 12)
“CAUTION:
Do not use Magnum loadings with bullet weights of less than 120
grains - This will reduce the possibility of premature erosion in
titanium alloy cylinders.”
.
Here’s a warning about the care of titanium cylinders. If your friend previously cleaned the cylinder face with anything abrasive, he compounded the problem.

 

[flop-shank]

I believe that there is a limit to nearly everything. In my opinion, the S&W 642 represents the lower weight limit for a .38 Special revolver for several reasons. Reasonable wear and reasonable recoil are two that come to mind. The alloy frame with a steel cylinder is light ENOUGH for me and is totally practical. Those pictures illustrate it much better than I could state it regarding the use of a titanium cylinder - too light and not particularly durable.

I am not a particular fan of "trick" bullets either. A good 158 gr lead Hollow Point with a Plus P load is enough for me.

Every body has their opinion and that is mine. Kind of like the artistic term "the golden mean"...

Dale53

Dale you're definately entitled to your opinion and I hope I can disagree without coming across as disagreeable.

You said Airweights are light enough for you, but you aren't everyone. I like and take advantage of the weight savings my 360 PD offers. In a jacket pocket ounces count and any more weight would cause too much sagging to fill my needs. There is a need and niche for these guns even if they don't particularly fill yours.

Titanium cylinders are plenty durable. Don't shoot .357s less than 120 gr. per the warning right on the gun itself. I clean mine with a nylon bore brush and Breakfree CLP. After at least a thousand rounds the gun is as tight as the day I got it and the cylinder doesn't have a single scratch on it's face. It's a matter of following the manufacturers directions and nothing more.

I'm not sure what constitutes a "trick bullet", but there are numerous cartridges available that take advantage of the latest technology and work very well when paired up with a scandium snub. The Barnes X bullet as loaded in Corbon DPX is nearly peerless in it's ability to expand at low velocities even in it's .38+P loading. Speer's SB .357 is what I carry and it also expands reliably from a 1 7/8" barrel. Both of these bullets also do something better than a LSWCHP in a gun as light as a scandium snub; they stay firmly seated in their case during recoil. I'm guessing that bullet pull is an issue with the FBI load or any other hard kicking lead bullet in scandium guns.

 

[M29since14]

An old range buddy of mine since late sixties in the meanwhile became a gun authority and a well known gun magazines article writer...

"...I was aware of the warning that “no less than 120 grs” ammunition should be used with this revolver, but I guessed that few rounds would be well tolerated by the handgun."

He guessed wrong. End of story.