Drasticly Diff Vel 125gr plated vs JHP-?

Charlie 1

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Just chronograph some 38 special 125gr H&M plated FP vs 125gr Sierra JHP in same gun, powder, primers, case prep etc...only difference was in the type of bullet. Plated bullet 780fps vs JHP bullet 886fps both at 4.6grs bulleye. And at 4.8grs bullseye plated ran 825fps vs JHP at 899fps. Any thoughts as to why plated run 106fps and 74fps respectively slower ?
 
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both manufacturers claim .357 however plated consistently measures .358 and Sierra JHP .3565

I think that is your answer. the plated are a tighter fit - tight enough to have to be swaged down in the barrel and the JHPs are small enough to just engage the lands of the rifling. That should make a huge difference in the friction.
 
I think that is your answer. the plated are a tighter fit - tight enough to have to be swaged down in the barrel and the JHPs are small enough to just engage the lands of the rifling. That should make a huge difference in the friction.

Makes sense, just didn't think .0015 would net that significant a difference.
 
I've also seen in the past a website that compared velocities of similar style bullets in lead, coated, plated and traditional copper jacketed and the results showed that plated bullets had the lowest velocities, thus a higher coefficient of friction. The fastest bullets were traditionally lubed cast lead, closely followed by the coated lead, then jacketed bullets and slowest were plated.
 
I've also seen in the past a website that compared velocities of similar style bullets in lead, coated, plated and traditional copper jacketed and the results showed that plated bullets had the lowest velocities, thus a higher coefficient of friction. The fastest bullets were traditionally lubed cast lead, closely followed by the coated lead, then jacketed bullets and slowest were plated.

At 4.8grs of bullseye I'm pushing JHP 899fps which to me seems to be the upper limit I would go in a 38 pressure wise, so should I assume that at 4.8grs of bullseye pushing plated @825 is also getting towards the upper pressure limit as well ?
 
With plated bullets the plating thickness governs max velocity. The manufactures website will tell you the plating thickness and max velocity.

The thinner plated bullets generally have a 1200 fps limit. And the thicker plated bullets can be fired at jacketed velocities.

I normally use reduced loads with plated bullets at lower cast bullet velocities. And save jacketed bullets for normal higher velocities.
 
Case space?

Even if the COL were identical would a difference in bullet length, which would affect the case space, affect the pressure causing a variance in velocities?
 
Very interesting.............

with the last idea of total bullet cylinder surface bearing vs fps

I wonder what a plated and lead 148gr HB or BB WC design would turn out at?
I don't have any plated 148's , or I would do this test.

Later.
 
I just did some searching and came up with the following link that shows some results via Google Books. They tested in 38 Super with various 124-125 grain RN/FMJ bullets.

<<<LINK>>>

The results from this page in the book show cast, traditionally lubed bullets as fastest, closely followed by Hi Tek coated, then moly coated, jacketed and slowest were the plated bullets tested.
 
I think the plated bullets have less friction, and therefor don't build up as much pressure, as jacketed bullets, with the same load. Less pressure equals less velocity. Unfortunately, it would take pressure measuring instruments to tell if i am right!

Best,
Rick
 
I think the plated bullets have less friction, and therefor don't build up as much pressure, as jacketed bullets, with the same load. Less pressure equals less velocity. Unfortunately, it would take pressure measuring instruments to tell if i am right!

Best,
Rick
That doesn't correlate.

Lubed lead has less friction than un-lubed copper - especially when the rifling is cutting into the surface - so the harder surface material of the copper plated would have more friction than lubed lead.

Copper jacketed would seem to have the same friction as plated. However, I'm thinking maybe the reason the plated is slower is that they are a soft swagged lead core with a very thin layer of copper and that allows them to obturate more than jacketed bullets which have a thick copper shell. As a result the plated ends up having a larger copper covered surface area in contact with the inside of the barrel lands and grooves. More surface area contact equals more friction and therefore lower velocity for the same loading.

To me that seems like a logical explanation why copper plated are slower than copper jacketed - which are both slower than lubed lead.
 
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That doesn't correlate.

Lubed lead has less friction than un-lubed copper - especially when the rifling is cutting into the surface - so the harder surface material of the copper plated would have more friction than lubed lead.

Copper jacketed would seem to have the same friction as plated. However, I'm thinking maybe the reason the plated is slower is that they are a soft swagged lead core with a very thin layer of copper and that allows them to obturate more than jacketed bullets which have a thick copper shell. As a result the plated ends up having a larger copper covered surface area in contact with the inside of the barrel lands and grooves. More surface area contact equals more friction and therefore lower velocity or the same loading.

To me that seems like a logical explanation why copper plated are slower than copper jacketed - which are both slower than lubed lead.

I have read this also about the soft lead core of plated bullets and believe this to be the correct reason.
 
My "testing" is not even close to scientific but I shoot a lot of 8" and 6" metal targets at around 75 yards. Distance chosen as this is as far as I can go in my back yard range. My go to load is 158gr bullet with 7.5gr HS-6. Don't have a chronograph but I'm guessing around 1000fps with 6" Barrel. The bullets I've shot at this distance are Berrys Target HP, X-Treme Target HP and Hornady XTP Jacketed. All advertised at .357 diameter. Berrys and Hornady are the most consistent as well as the most accurate, but I can use same point of aim with all 3. Not sure how much variation in velocity there would have to be to change the drop at that distance. I have some hard cast SWC that are .358 but have yet to try. Probably not much of an answer or help but just my findings.
 
It seems that....

It seems that the differences between the bullets is more than enough to account for the velocity difference. A more important question now would be are you getting good consistency between cartridges with exactly the same components.
 
It seems that the differences between the bullets is more than enough to account for the velocity difference. A more important question now would be are you getting good consistency between cartridges with exactly the same components.

Haven't really tested for accuracy. Right now I'm just looking at fps.
 
both manufacturers claim .357 however plated consistently measures .358 and Sierra JHP .3565

With those dims, I would exoect the plated to run faster, higher pressures. Length of bearing also comes into playbas does OAL. It isnt as simple as 125gr bullet wts.
 
At 4.8grs of bullseye I'm pushing JHP 899fps which to me seems to be the upper limit I would go in a 38 pressure wise, so should I assume that at 4.8grs of bullseye pushing plated @825 is also getting towards the upper pressure limit as well ?

Yes assume pressures are the same with the peak pressure dwell occuring in a different spot in the barrel. Velocities are changed due to the bullets friction even if the peaks are only a fraction of an inch from each other.
 
Here is a post I had posted on another forum back in 2015, right after I started trying out the Hi Tek coated bullets from Bayou Bullets. I didn't test plated bullets, but did compare a Zero 158 grain JSP bullet with the Bayou 158 grain SWC coated bullets in one of my model 27's and my 20" barrel Rossi 92SRC. This isn't directly comparable to what you would see with a 125 grain bullet, but does highlight the velocity difference between a coated SWC design as compared to a jacketed JSP design. And it also highlights the velocity increase between a 6 1/2" vented barrel as compared to a 20" non-vented barrel using the same ammo.

Anyways, Here is a quote of my old post from that other forum

ME from another forum said:
Today wasn't too cold and not much rain, so I made a range trip to see if the stuff I heard about the Hi-Tek coated bullets being faster than jacketed was true. I had read that on some forums, but didn't know for a fact with my own eyes. And it gave me an excuse to play with my Caldwell chronograph too.

The bullets I tested were as follows:

Bayou Bullets 158 grain coated SWC
Zero Bullets 158 grain jacketed soft point

All were loaded with CCI 550 primers and 16.3 grains of Win 296 and all had a hard roll crimp. The cases used were Starline with around 2-3 loadings on them.

The test guns were my old Rossi model 1892SRC carbine, which has a 20" barrel and my 6 1/2" barrel S&W model 27-5.

The objectives were to:

1. See what velocity difference, if any, was encountered simply by switching from a jacketed bullet to a Hi-Tek coated bullet, all else being equal.

2. To see the velocity difference between a short, vented barrel and a long, non-vented barrel with the same load.

I set my chrony up around 15 feet in front and started testing. Temps stayed between 53-55 degrees the whole time testing.

Results:

First up is the pistol.
With the Zero bullets, the average velocity was 1146 fps with a standard deviation of 18.19
With the Bayou Bullets, the average velocity was 1234 fps with a standard deviation of 13.58

Now for the rifle results:
With the Zero bullets, the average velocity was 1696 fps with a standard deviation of 15.44
With the Bayou bullets, the average velocity was 1762 fps with a standard deviation of 12.29

The coated lead bullets averaged 88 fps faster than the jacketed bullets with the same load in the pistol. With the rifle, the coated lead bullets averaged 66 fps faster than the jacketed bullets.

The rifle averaged 550 fps faster than the pistol with the Zero jacketed bullets with this load. With the coated lead bullets, it averaged 528 fps faster in the rifle.

These are the first coated lead bullets I've loaded. I've shot mainly jacketed bullets since the nineties until last year, when I started trying the plated bullets out. They seemed to shoot just fine, but the pricing on them has gotten so close to what I bought the Zero bullets for it wasn't worthwhile to mess with them. They were only around a penny or so a round cheaper. But, after reading about the coated bullets here and at the S&W forums I decided to give them a go and now I am glad I did. I get better performance for less cost. Accuracy on them seemed to be par with the jacketed bullets, but I really wasn't doing an accuracy check as much as looking at the velocity difference between the 2 styles of bullets. I didn't see any more smoke from the lead bullets than I did with the jacketed bullets either. And I had no leading problems either. The only problem I have run into with the Bayou lead bullets was last time I had shot them (which was the first time I had shot them), I ran into a problem with bullet creep in a short barrel Colt revolver my brother has. I re-crimped those bullets with a very hard roll crimp and that is what I shot today. Today I saw no sign of bullet creep on either the revolver or the rifle, but my brother didn't bring his Colt Lawman to the range today.

The biggest surprise for me today was how much more velocity this load picked up out of the rifle than the pistol. I had guessed that it would be around 400 fps but I was low on my guess by over 100 fps. And another surprise to me was that the coated lead bullets picked up a significant amount of speed with the same powder charge.

Also, my brother and I played with our ARs too and burned up 200-300 rounds each. It was a fun range trip. The weather looked like **** and kept everyone away, so we had the pistol side all to ourselves.:D
 
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