Dumb C&R question from an 03 ffl newbie

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I know this is really basic but I can't find the answer on the ATF site.

When traveling out of my home state can I purchase a C&R gun at a gun show or store over the counter with a signed copy of my C&R license? Or, can they only ship it to me?
 
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I'd base the answer on what state you are buying in. From a Federal standpoint you can take the firearm with you. However if I was buying a C&R firearm in NY, NJ, Mass, CA or one of the other 'stans I'd have the firearm shipped to avoid hassle if I was pulled over.
 
Just make sure you keep another copy of your license with you and don't forget to log it in. You can buy a long gun not just C&R from most states and not be a resident of that state. Follow the rules for transport you will be OK.

And no questions are dumb if you have problems finding the answer.

Remember the only dumb question is a question not asked.
 
It's far from a dumb question. There is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about C&R licenses, and I for one don't pretend to have all the answers about them. They should be straightforward, and at the federal level they are, but the problem is that some states with their laws muddy the waters. It ends up making them more in the category of "follow your state's laws" than you get with the 01 FFLs IMO, which is a mess.

For long guns a non C&R can buy a long gun in another state and take possession if it is a) legal in your state of residence to do so and b) legal in the state where the transfer takes place, so I'll focus more on handguns as that's a potentially different situation for C&R holders. But the end answer is the same: it depends on the states involved.

As I understand it you can go out of state with a C&R and take possession of a C&R handgun on site, per federal rules. Federally your 03 C&R has the same standing as the 01 in that regard. Was just talking to a ATF guy about something else and this came up, that's what he told me and that's how I read the regs, though I've been told wrong things by agents before.

The problem is that some states like California, NY, etc. have laws that complicate it for C&R holders. One complication is they ban some guns that are otherwise legal, so if you were to buy one of those (say a M1 carbine for example in Cali) it's illegal for you to have in Cali even if you are a C&R holder. Another is some states have laws that exempt "dealers" but not specifically C&R holders, who are not "dealers" per the GCA definition.

A great example there is the Postal regs and form 1508. That form says you have to ship handguns to a manufacturer or "dealer", it does not include C&R holders. It seems to have been a simple oversight in wording on the form, but they won't correct it lest they run afoul of a political issue so through technicality a C&R shouldn't be shipping or receiving handguns via USPS even though the intent of the 03 license is to allow such things. Basically just a mess.

My short answer is that you can take possession of it IF it is a) legal per your state of residence to do so, and b) legal in the state you're in where you complete the transaction. For example if you went into New York and bought a handgun you'd still have to have a NYS permit to transport the gun (as I understand their rules) regardless of your C&R status. It would be illegal for you to have that gun in their state. Of course in NYS (again afaik) even dealers need a license from NYS to have guns in their possession. Nonetheless that's a good example of the state complications on the matter.

Sorry for the essentially non-answer, but it all depends on the state you're from and the state you're in. Federally I believe you're OK even for handguns, it's the state laws that will get you.

FWIW this is why a lot of dealers wont' work with C&R licenses. The laws are just hard to keep track of with all the different states and with so many laws C&Rs get forgotten or dropped from the language so they end up MAYBE treated like a non-FFL and maybe like a 01, and there's no single authoritative source to say yes or no. They figure if they go through the full process like it was a regular non-FFL holder they're safe, so that's what they do.

it's a shame, but I don't blame them. I've spent hours and hours reading regs and laws and discussions of them only to conclude I may know less about it than when I started. When you have to potentially answer to ATF and USPS and California DOJ and maybe Senator Feinstein herself it's easier to just play it as safe as possible, right or not.
 
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Thanks, folks. I'm heading to Lost Wages and thought I might check out a LGS or 2. I think their pawn shops don't carry firearms.

From what I've seen on "Pawn Stars" they don't handle "modern guns" too much paperwork. However they seem to have a lot of "antique guns". (pre 1899) Say hello to Chumlee for me.
 
From what I've seen on "Pawn Stars" they don't handle "modern guns" too much paperwork. However they seem to have a lot of "antique guns". (pre 1899) Say hello to Chumlee for me.

They also seem to pass on a lot b/c the sellers are like the guy on the other thread selling the Mod 10 for $1,200. I don't watch it often but did last night, guy wanted to sell an authentic Sharps rifle for the low low price of $37,000. Not if Buffalo Bill Cody hand forged it in the fires of Mt. Doom. lol.
 
03 C&R license is for collecting only. Their is no dealing. An 03 will never be a dealer license that is why some states do not accept certain exemptions. In NY, with my 03 I can legally have long guns shipped to my house from other states but within the state I have to have a background check done because of the new stupid SAFE Act law. Handguns are not allow C&R status unless they are an antique. We have registration for handguns here in NY so I cannot use my 03 for a Remington Rand I found in Florida. I can buy the gun legally but they will have to ship it to my 01 FFL and then I would have to add it on my pistol permit.

James
 
I tried it at Cabelas in Buda, TX but they needed a signed copy of my 03 ffl. I dropped one off the next time I was there but I haven't used it yet.
 
I also have a concealed carry permit so I don't need the background check when purchasing firearms. I have gotten C n R guns from all over the country with no problems. Classic sends handguns to my local post office.
 
I tried it at Cabelas in Buda, TX but they needed a signed copy of my 03 ffl. I dropped one off the next time I was there but I haven't used it yet.

I do prefer an original signature on them b/c of the way some of the regs are written, and the fact that ffl ez-check doesn't include C&Rs. To verify one you'd have to call ATF. Not real sure why they don't include them, just another way in which they're treated too often as an after thought by the powers that be.
 
As an aside when I travel I not only carry a copy of my C&R but a copy of the FFL from the LGS that handles my non C&R transfers. That way if I see something I really like that is not a C&R it can be shipper tot he LGS and it will be waiting when I get home.
 
there are pawn shops that handle guns in vegas. just not the "pawn stars" place.
 
You'll find some cops don't know what a C&R means either. I bought some guns at a show and ya had to show the police at the door your receipt and paperwork upon exit. When I showed a copy of my C&R FFL , they told me Curios & Relics means it was only good for antiques like muzzleloaders and such!:rolleyes:
 
...For long guns a non C&R can buy a long gun in another state and take possession if it is a) legal in your state of residence to do so and b) legal in the state where the transfer takes place, so I'll focus more on handguns as that's a potentially different situation for C&R holders. But the end answer is the same: it depends on the states involved...

As I understand it, you may purchase a long gun out of state if both states allow it and you do the transaction at a FFL place of business (which is registered with the BATF). From there website:

"A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State..."

This is what I believe pertains to someone traveling to another state to buy a long gun.

As to the OP question:

"...curio or relic firearms may be transferred in interstate commerce to licensed collectors or other licensees."
 
As I understand it, you may purchase a long gun out of state if both states allow it and you do the transaction at a FFL place of business (which is registered with the BATF). From there website:

"A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State..."

This is what I believe pertains to someone traveling to another state to buy a long gun.

As to the OP question:

"...curio or relic firearms may be transferred in interstate commerce to licensed collectors or other licensees."

that's correct, but the FFL premises requirement is true of any transaction by a FFL. It' has GOT to be the dumbest rule in the GCA, one I've lobbied to have changed, but as a FFL I can only complete a transaction on my licensed premises or at an exempt event (gun show). Even if I do every bit of the paperwork exactly the same I can't meet you somewhere and conduct the transaction.

With cell phones and the internet everywhere I can do the forms and run the background check from my car. If I do the work properly I have no idea why it matters where I do it.

Long guns are basically governed by state law, which is why I kinda skipped them for C&R. If it's legal in the buyer's state of residence and legal in the state of transaction then it's legal to buy the gun and take immediate possession and transport it back to the state of residence.

The tricky part is that it's the FFL's responsibility to know if it's legal in both states. In my home state that's easy, Kentucky has no special laws on the subject, but knowing the other 49 states is a pain. ATF puts out a CD with info on it, but the laws are changing too quick for that to be 100%.

that's where the C&R complexity comes in, b/c different states have different rules for them, and FFLs are afraid of running afoul of the law in some other state they don't know by selling a gun illegal in that state to a C&R who takes it home. They figure a 01 FFL is more likely to be compliant and/or somehow protects them more if they sell to them versus a C&R or a regular buyer. Not saying that's right, but it's the fear of doing something wrong that makes them so conservative.

Federally interstate in person long gun sales are fine, even for non C&Rs, and with the C&R you can do the same with C&R handguns, but then the state laws come into play and that's where it gets confusing.

There is also some debate about a gun being on the C&R, but that's usually simple enough to resolve. Though mkk41's post shows just how little people know about the C&R rules. Like I said I've read a lot on all the regs and by no means think I'm 100% on them, C&R or otherwise. Too many rules and regs and unclear paragraphs and contradictions IMO.
 
You'll find some cops don't know what a C&R means either. I bought some guns at a show and ya had to show the police at the door your receipt and paperwork upon exit. When I showed a copy of my C&R FFL , they told me Curios & Relics means it was only good for antiques like muzzleloaders and such!:rolleyes:

In the new NYS SAFE Act,,they exempt certain 'Antique' (their wording) firearms and hi-capacity magazines from the new laws requirements and restrictions.

The deffinition of 'Antique' per/NYS SAFE Act is any firearm 50 y/o old or older.

..Not confusing at all. Those in power know what they're doing,,,



and FWIW,,NYS residents are not allowed to purchase a long gun from an FFL in any other State other than a contiguous (ajoining) State.

The contiguous state rule is pre-1986 language in the GCAct. NYS still follows it. A few others probably do too. It's up to the FFL to know the State laws and it's not easy to do.
 
I had to spend a half hour educating a pawn shop in Missouri about C&R licenses. They also thought it was only good for something built before 1897. A couple phone calls finally did it.
 
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