European proof marks on 686-6

[mister_sam]

As requested by Kernel Crittenden in another thread:

Bought a 686-6 today in Belgium. Kernel Crittenden told me the gun was shipped in February 2015. He asked me to show him the European proof marks.

I do not have the gun in my possession yet, have it on lay-away until I receive a permit for it (very straight-forward procedure, if you are a law abiding citizen like me). So I now only have one picture of it.

I hope this detail of the picture helps, not sure if this is what is asked for. When i have the gun (give or take 3 months from now), I will post full detail pictures of the three proof marks.

Full picture:

Detail:

You can clearly see the letters CIP, this refers to "Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives" or "Permanent International Commission for the Proof of Small Arms", more info on Wikipedia

Below CIP you can see the letter N, which means it's a normal proofing, meaning it's for normal loads.

Below you see a shield with the letters B E L, this is the official stamp of het proof bank of Belgium, located in Luik (Liège in French, since its in the French speaking part of Belgium.
Logo:

http://www.cip-bobp.org/poincons shows you more information about the proof marks of other countries that are in the CIP.

So, to end my story, there is no standard European proof mark. Only the above mentioned member states use the CIP proof marks. A quick search on proof marks for Holland (Nederland) was negative. A Dutch forum member could enlighten us...

Hope I wrote this down in understandable English. Questions? Shoot! ... in a safe direction ;-)

 

[mister_sam]

Forgot my disclaimer:
I am not familiar with this subject. The information given was found through internet searches. Other people are kindly asked to correct me when I wrote something wrong.

And I can give you more:

Further inspection of the image i have shows the three proof marks I think:

On the barrel, frame and cilinder. Barrel and cilinder only show CIP N, the frame has added the stamp and year.

I looked on my s&w m&p 15-22 rifle and found this on the barrel:

You can see the same markings, CIP N, year, shield. But on the top, you can see the letter F with a star above it. I read that this is the personal stamp of the guy who proofed the gun. A quick google shows that the man that proofed my rifle is: Joseph Scholtissen.

I did not yet find the "letter with star" on my 686-6. Will look into it when I have it in my possession.

 

[Walter Rego]

I have a S&W Model 31-1 that bears markings from WISCHO, a European distributor and Belgian proofmarks. It shipped 30 years ago this month and somehow made it's way back to the US. Here are the markings on the bottom of the barrel. It also has the Liege proofmark on the bottom of the frame forward of the trigger guard and on the rear of the cylinder.

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

Nice post. Very informative. The import markings and locations change over time. It is good to see a recent example.

Liege is the most common port of entry into the EU. Even for guns going to countries other than Belgium.

When you get your Distinguish Combat Magnum under the grips there will be some factory markings, and a few more on the yoke. They too changed with time. In years past they frequently use a star, not unlike the one on your M&P 15-22.

 

[Seven High]

Do you know what procedure they use to proof a pistol or revolver? How many rounds are fired? Are they over powered? Do you have to pay for this?

 

[mister_sam]

Distinguish Combat Magnum

Is this a special name for a 686? Never heard of it before. Please elaborate...

Do you know what procedure they use to proof a pistol or revolver? How many rounds are fired? Are they over powered? Do you have to pay for this?

I found this on wikipedia (link)concerning the procedure:

Proof testing in C.I.P. regulated countries

German definitive smokeless powder proof marks (eagle over N figure) issued by the Beschussamt Ulm C.I.P. accredited Proof House (antlers figure) on a Walther PPS pistol.
In C.I.P. member states every civil firearm has to be professionally proofed in accredited Proof Houses before it can be sold to consumers.

The standard proof test consist of firing two overloaded cartridges that produce 25% more chamber pressure than the C.I.P. specified maximum pressure limit for the same cartridge in its commercial version. The standard proof of pistol, revolver and rimfire cartridges is performed with overloaded cartridges that produce 30% more chamber pressure than the C.I.P maximum pressure limit for the same cartridge in its commercial version. There are only two overloaded firings to avoid excessive stress to the arm, especially the barrel which is the main part suffering this overload beside the chamber (when not part of the barrel) and the locking mechanism. After the test, the arm is disassembled by the proof house technicians for nondestructive testing looking for Magnetic flux leakage through fluoroscopic lamp in a dark room. Many manufacturers, including Glock Ges.m.b.H., package the casings from a firearm's proof ammunition in a sealed envelope accompanying the firearm so that authorities in C.I.P.-signatory states and civilian purchasers in other countries can conduct an independent examination if they desire.[13]

Before the year 2006 the standard test consisted of firing two overloaded cartridges producing 30% more chamber pressure then the C.I.P. specified maximum chamber gas pressure limit for the same cartridge in its commercial version.

Voluntarily testing beyond the current legally required standard test benchmark is often also possible for consumers who intend the use their firearms under extreme conditions (hot climates, long strings of shots, etc.). In case a firearm passes such a proof-test a pass mark termed superior proof mark is stamped in every successfully tested firearm.

Price for proofing in Belgium is about 30$. You only have to do this if you import a weapon. This was already done for my 686, so don't have to pay it again.
Do not know if a proof mark of another CIP member counts in my country. This would be logical since they use the same standards. But did not find any proof of this yet.

 

[bigwheelzip]

Hey stijnsamyn, I eavesdropped on your thread to the Kernel, and have enjoyed the lesson. I got out a magnifying glass to examine those previously unnoticed marks on my guns.
Fun to know the story behind the marks.

 

[mister_sam]

Found some video's about the procedure, without explanation, and kinda antiquated.
http://www.cip-bobp.org/epreuves%20video

On the same page, a pdf with a lot of info...
http://www.cip-bobp.org/sites/default/files/new_file/A-4-1_EN.pdf

 

[mister_sam]

Hey stijnsamyn, I eavesdropped on your thread to the Kernel, and have enjoyed the lesson. I got out a magnifying glass to examine those previously unnoticed marks on my guns.
Fun to know the story behind the marks.

Wanna share a pic with the marks? European gun?

Didn't know anything about proofing prior to this thread, but got me interested ;-)

 

[bigwheelzip]

Found some video's about the procedure, without explanation, and kinda antiquated.

That's a funny coincidence. I just finished looking at that website in the search for more info.
I like to see standards and quality control being applied. It's kind of confidence inspiring to have a knowledgeable third-party check something that's important to me. And the fact that they take responsibility with a personal stamp is something that is all too rare these days.

 

[bigwheelzip]

Wanna share a pic with the marks? European gun?

I'll try. I think my lousy camera might make a clear picture of the proofs on the polished stainless CZ. The ones on black surfaces are tough to see even with a magnifying glass.

Can't get a clear picture. It's a CZ with the Czech proof house figure of a walking stick figure within a shield, with the number 14 to the left of the shield and CIP with an N below it, to the right of the shield.
On the CZ, the barrel, slide, and frame all have matching serial numbers. The CIP with the N below is to the left of each serial number. Only the slide gets the proof house and date stamp.

 

[mister_sam]

I have a S&W Model 31-1 that bears markings from WISCHO, a European distributor and Belgian proofmarks. It shipped 30 years ago this month and somehow made it's way back to the US. Here are the markings on the bottom of the barrel. It also has the Liege proofmark on the bottom of the frame forward of the trigger guard and on the rear of the cylinder.

This pic shows:
a year of proofing : cursive Z : so proofed in 1987
a (double double stamped) A with star above it, so it was proofed by Francois Croux.
The L with crown is a proofmark for foreign weapons, in Liege.

Thanks for the picture!

 

[DT75]

4 of my S&W revolvers have proof marks, 2 don't. The 4 that are proof tested are (side)imported from Germany by Norwegian gun shops, the other 2 are most likely imported by the official S&W importer, directly from US to Norway.
The 2 without proof marks was bought used so I don't know much about their history, however, a buddy bought a 686 (-8 IIRC) via the official importer about a year ago that had no proof marks either.

The 686 -4 is also stamped with the Liege crown in front of the trigger guard, under the yoke, and at the back of the cylinder. Bought used.
The 629 -5 has certainly come via Germany, as it is a Wischo. Also bought used.
The 460V also have CIP-N markings on the cylinder, same as the 686 -6. Both are imported from Germany by the shops where I bought them. Both bought new.

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

...The 686 -4 is also stamped with the Liege crown in front of the trigger guard....

The letters "Akah" stand for......

Albrecht Kind aus Hunstig.​

A German importer in the city of Hunstig.

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

Is this a special name for a 686? Never heard of it before. Please elaborate.....

The Model 686's official S&W catalog name is the.....

Distinguished Combat Magnum Stainless.​

Though it never appears on the gun or written on the box label. You will find it used in S&W's brochures and catalog "cut sheets". Cool name, isn't it?

Most Smiths have a unique catalog name. For example, the Model 38 is the Bodyguard. The Model 642 is the Centennial 38 Stainless. The Model 15 is the K-38 Combat Masterpiece. The Model 14 was the K-38 Target Masterpiece. And so on.

 

[DT75]

The letters "Akah" stand for......

Albrecht Kind aus Hunstig.​

A German importer in the city of Hunstig.

So to summarize : My -4 was imported (or sold) by Albrecht Kind GmbH, located in Hunstig, Germany + proof tested i Liege by Mr. Joseph Scholtissen in 1994.

Interesting to know. Thanks.

Don't have the orignal box, but the frame number is BRM9370, if of any interest.

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

... but the frame number is BRM9370, ...

That serial number corresponds to a ship date of......

April - June 1994.​

 

[JBhunter45]

I have a S&W Model 31-1 that bears markings from WISCHO, a European distributor and Belgian proofmarks. It shipped 30 years ago this month and somehow made it's way back to the US. Here are the markings on the bottom of the barrel. It also has the Liege proofmark on the bottom of the frame forward of the trigger guard and on the rear of the cylinder.

I have Wischo 629-1 6" unfluted with similar proofs.
Thanks for the other proof mark information, I'll have to look at mine when home from work.