Ex KCPD RM

Nframe357

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I've got RM # 5171 4" it's an ex KCPD gun about 70% finish very smooth action non correct period grips, 1946 rework star, it had a humpback that a previous owner ground down for pocket carry. I've since installed a period correct hammer and still have the ground down hammer also. Kings rear sight with a blade front. It's a nice old Smith with a cool history and I'm toying with the idea of selling. Opinions on worth and whether or not the ex KCPD guns even have a following in the collector world?
 
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I've got RM # 5171 4" it's an ex KCPD gun about 70% finish very smooth action non correct period grips, 1946 rework star, it had a humpback that a previous owner ground down for pocket carry. I've since installed a period correct hammer and still have the ground down hammer also. Kings rear sight with a blade front. It's a nice old Smith with a cool history and I'm toying with the idea of selling. Opinions on worth and whether or not the ex KCPD guns even have a following in the collector world?
 
It's difficult to give value judgements without pics Nframe357. Based on the fact that KCPD guns have often been re-finished several times, occasionally very badly, I'd guess value at somewhere around the $1200 mark (IMO). Re 'a following', some of our fellow collectors don't rate the KCPD as Registered Magnums. However, others of us love RM's regardless of their condition and LEO guns are often 'well lived in', so you should find a market for it.

Hope it helps.
 
Originally posted by Nframe357:
...and whether or not the ex KCPD guns even have a following in the collector world?

You're kidding, right?
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Type in "KC" in the search function on this forum and spend a day with good reading. Congratulations!

Bob
 
My guess is that the ones I've seen sell recently have gone for a little more than Dave's estimate. The most recent sale that I'm familiar with was Blake's gun with a postwar rear sight and Patridge type front. And like all of them, it'd been refinished. That one sold for $1600, I believe. And that was just about what it was worth.

You won't get a high end collector to buy it. When people value condition over all else, a refinished gun is a paperweight. But remember that they only made 5400, plus or minus a few above that, 180 unused frames (maybe), and the 250 KC guns that you can count in any group you want. From that, you've got to decide which category it belongs. And we've got over 5000 members here, with some being piggish and hoarding more/way more than their fair share!
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That means that everyone can't have even one of them. And despite the snobbish feelings of some collectors, every KC gun that I've ever played with seems to be very smooth and serviceable. Just sometimes well used.

And there are some that say they don't earn enough to collect them, given todays high prices. So these guns present a terrific opportunity for the budget minded to buy, own, and shoot one. And next time you view the great photos posted here, remember those guns are never shot. Those of us that own or have owned pristine examples just don't risk damage to them by shooting or snapping them. We use the more "experienced" examples for that, the KC's being prime examples of guns you won't feel guilty about.

And most of us don't lose money on RM transactions. They're wonderful guns to own and shoot. If you don't mind fondling one for a year or two, history has shown us getting our purchase price back. With luck, maybe a little more. Try that stunt on current production guns.

The KC guns are the only affordable RMs we're likely to see in the future. My advice to anyone that hasn't owned one is to find one at a fair price while you can. If you keep it for 2 years and shoot it some or a lot, you'll still probably get your full purchase price back, maybe do a little better.
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thats a good thing!
 
Man I sure love my recently acquired KC Reg Mag. I had resigned long ago that I would never have one..but Jupiter was in line with Mars and Joe Sharpe stepped up to the plate and made it happen. Yes, there are those that may exclude the KC guns from true Reg Mag's but I'm not one of them (and neither is Mr Jinks per his letter). Like Dick said, they are shootable without any worry. The history of these 250 is very documentable and interesting. Of course mine has been refinished but very well done. I dearly love this gun and will enjoy it for many years. I also love the somewhat lower condition guns (like Teddydog has). The information on this Forum on the KC guns is long and storied. They usually won't cost an arm and a leg either compared to the high end ones. I hope you enjoy yours just half as much as I have mine in the two weeks that I've owned it.

Roger
 
I picked up my example at the begining of January, it is my proudest possesion. I shoot my RM several times per month, sometimes more if I have the time. My Reg Mag's past is probably not as interesting as a KC gun's I don't imagine. It was shipped to a hardware store in KC Missouri, not sure who originally purchased it for use. Does anyone here know if hardware stores usually ordered these for stock? Or were they only ordered for a customer that requested one?

Jared
 
On reflection Dick is probably closer with $1600, although the absense of the correct grips may lower that a bit. Don't be downhearted about it. It's a really rare and beautifully made gun. The best in this collectors opinion.

Post a picture and we might be able to tell you how good the re-finish is which, in turn, might raise the value significantly. If it turns out the original factory re-finish is the only one it's had it might jump up several hundreds of $'s. Pics pics pics.
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Unfortunately I'm picture posting ignorant, no clue how to do it. It was factory refinished in 9/46 and it appears to be factory to me. It's going in the classifieds tonight.
 
Nframe, is the period-correct hammer you installed an RM hammer with the concentric grooves?

I think that would make a difference to me in terms of how much I would be willing to pay if I were thinking of buying it.
 
I couldn't agree more with Dick regarding these guns. They are just FUN! Fun to own, fun to shoot, fun to research and have fantasies about.

I would split with him on one point, however. His statement that
...And like all of them, it'd been refinished.
isn't quite correct. I have one (608xx) that was shipped to the KCPD on Jan. 30, 1940 that has never been refinished. It apparently left the "employ" of the KC Department before its stablemates were deaccessioned there and sent back to the Factory for a redo. That lends credence to the tale that came with it (so far undocumented), that it moved on to an even more interesting life after its duty in MO.

I'd be interested in knowing if anyone else has another KC Magnum that wasn't refinished.

Bob
 
Bob, I have posted a coupla times asking if anyone could explain to me what sort of factory rework might have occured if a gun was NOT refinished. (I think a shortening of the bbl would include a refinish. Maybe a rebarelling would not?) So far, no luck with a response.

If you have any thoughts on what happened with your gun when it went back to the factory, or in general, I'd apreciate hearing them.

Arlo
 
Arlo,

My gun didn't go back to the factory. The story is that it left KC for duty in the Pacific in WWII but I've yet to confirm that. It's a 4" blue with a King ramp front sight and, except for the absence of the factory rework star, it looks like all the rest of the KC guns.

Bob
 
Some housekeeping:

Bob's gun is one of the 2nd set, clearly a non-registered. I've got 60904, but its been thru its first life and second, maybe getting started on its third. And I have no answers to his history problem. But we do know that some PDs didn't issue all the guns they bought, keeping a few as replacements/loaners/whatever. Maybe he got lucky and got one of those (or the WWII GI did). His is clearly the exception.

As for the question Arlo poses.... My understanding is that the * is not a refinish mark, its a rework mark. Its a slightly bigger umbrella that can also include refinishing or the replacement or rework of a major part. And I'm too stupid to know what a "major" part is. Its pretty well agreed that a barrel, cylinder or frame is included. And most people I've discussed it with feel that a hammer or trigger amounts to a major part.

And most of us think, but can't prove, that a screw or spring isn't. But factories don't always follow the rules, and someone may have stamped a gun if it had a broken spring, out of time situation, etc. And anyone want to guess about something like a hand or cylinder stop?

Most refinished guns have the *. But they often also have another mark or two, including the often seen date stamp, the brackets with an "N", "R-N", "R-B", etc. And we don't really know if the guns with more than 1 date were fixed, refinished, or both. Roy can't tell us, or at least he says he can't.

I'd be great if he'd take a few hours and look under KC PD to see if they've got serial numbers on guns sent back in the early postwar. It seems to me that it might be fertile hunting grounds. But until the KC guns start getting more respect, that probably won't happen.

I think the answer to Arlo's question is that we just don't know. Sometimes the gun itself tells you a lot. The original KC magnums, both RMs and Non's all were originally shipped with a beautiful bright finish. The ones with the brushed finish and 1940s date stamps were clearly reworked, and I assume by the factory (no self respecting gunsmith would attempt to duplicate that.) And since all the one's I've seen show evidence of the brush work (and I've not seen Bob, much less his gun!
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) , my assumption is that refinish and mechanical checking was done at the same time.

And that is mostly deduced by logic, not always my strong point. These were the top of the top end revolvers. Those that owned them didn't pitch them out when they began to show a little wear. Remember, all the people in this time frame had endured the Great Depression. The watch word was "waste not, want not". They didn't feel that a tuneup and refresh was going to damage the gun. They were doing it a favor at the time.

And in all my ignorance, I don't even know the general time frame that KC disposed of them. Bruce Perkins did a great research job on the one he had. He even got the original holster. I forget how that story ended up. If you're out there, Bruce, rehash it if you would, please?
 
My problem with the KC guns that they seem to turn up having been aggressively refinished multiple times. While I don't have a huge problem with nice crisp factory refinished gun I do have a problems with multiple refinished guns that end up "rounded". It just ruins them for me. All the sharp lines and tight hand fitted pieces loose and rounded.

Add to this the lack of correct grips and what seems like a common trend of changing the hammer and what you have today has little of what I love about the prewar magnum.

Add to this the cost of finding the right parts to bring it back to original and they are seldom a good deal. Correct grips, correct hammer, and a top quality refinishing job to repair the polishing issues will run you $4,000 and for $4,000 + the cost of the gun you can get a 98% gun.

.02$
 
I've got another one of the late shipment Non-Registered 'pre-war magnums' (to use old and new parlance in a very politically correct manner
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).

It's one of the very late production guns shipped in July 1940 and sent direct to the Police Commissioner KC (I've always wondered about that...?) as part of an order for 26 units. Serial # is 61959.

The gun retains about 85% of it's original finish - at least it shows no sign of any re-finishing. Looks good and honest, and it's one of my favourite police guns - pic below. So, after rambling aimlessly on for 5 mins, my point is that not all KCPD guns show similar signs of heavy usage. Which in turn, might indicate that at least some of them were sold off not long after WWII...

61959NONREG.jpg
 
My two letters that give additional information seem to indicate that there were 2 large purchases. The first 250 are built on frames that have registration numbers and are within a serial range occupied by other RMs. The second large group consisted of an order for 200 guns. These are guns that seem to include Bob's 60,8xxs gun and my 60,904.

And I don't have any way of knowing if that group of 29 that includes the pictured gun is really part of a clean up of those 200, or a separate order. I think we've discussed it before, and someone suggested that it was the last. And it may have included some guns that didn't follow the 4" pattern.

Geoff's comment about hammers is a little confusing to me. If he's talking about original hammers or if he's concluding that the HBH that a vast majority have, I don't know what to think. We've discussed the HBH issue many times. No one knows if the guns letter with standard hammers and were really shipped that way, or if they just used the HBHs they had in stock. And there is another possibility, that HBHs were installed during refinishing. I find that last to be unlikely, if only because I can't imagine that many hammers having problems. Sounds like a pretty big project to put hundreds of HBHs into otherwise well functioning guns.

And its confusing if Bobs gun was shipped in one order and then Dave's in another, but neither saw much/any duty. I've really only seen a few guns from that 2nd large batch. The vast majority of KC guns we see are the ones with RM#s on them, brushed refinished blue, etc.

And as for the grip issue, it seems as if S&W policy was to always throw away the original wood and replace it with whatever the current production grips were at that time. I have a strong feeling thats behind the high prices of correct, 1930s large medallion wood. Everyone wants them, and S&W pitched somewhere near 450 sets. Creates a huge demand for a scarce item.
 
I should have been more clear on my hammer comment. I meant that we have seen two of these KC guns recently with altered original hammers that would need to be replaced in order to make them whole.

I incorrectly passed this characteristic on to all refinished KC guns which is obviously not the case.
 
Dick,

I didn't mean to be sinister about my serial number. In fact, it is only 5 numbers away from yours...60899!..and yes, it is from the second group of 200.

It is finished with the "beautiful bright blue" finish like Dave's, except that instead of a McGivern gold bead, mine has a Baughman ramp. It also has post war magnas that have obviously been on it for a long time. The right panel showing the usual "dings" from holster wear. It also has a little more wear on the cylinder and barrel end than Dave's. It is interesting that Roy's letter contains the statement: "Since this model could be ordered with any style of front sight they are not generally listed on the invoice".

Oh yeah, when we meet, I'll be tickeled pink if you charitably describe me as having a "brushed finish". Whatever "bright finish" I might have had, well, it faded years ago.

Bob
 

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