Excessive leading, I think

[OM18V]

Newbie here, hope I'm posting in the correct area.

I'm attempting to use a Model 66-7 4" with ultradot for centerfire bullseye shooting. I seem to be getting excessive leading and I'm not sure if it's the weapon, the reloads or if this is normal.

Dillon 550
Federal 38 special brass
Precision Delta 148 grain HBWC
2.5 grains Bullseye
Federal primers
light crimp Dillon crimp die
bullet set to .005 out of brass, sorry don't have OAL handy

After 3 relays (90 rounds) there is leading in the throat and forcing cone area but mostly the cyclinder has high amounts of leading that is difficult to remove.

Two other shooters using wheel guns that do not have this issue although I am not sure what brand HBWC they are using.

Opinions?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[aquagear]

The load you are are using should not be hot enough to cause leading, are you sure it is not the lube on the bullets. I have been using a similar load for years with a Remingtion 148 HBWC and never had a leading problem. I would start by trying other brands of bullets and see if the problem is the same. Hope you figure it out, i still think it might be the lube some of the molly coatings can crud thins up a bit. Good luck

 

[guesser]

I suffered the same throat problem with a 66-5. I tried different bullets, different powders, 38 Special, 357 Magnum, low velocity. high velocity, changed primers, changed head stamps. All failed to eliminate leaded chamber throats. Forcing cone and bore were not leaded. I finally gave up and traded for a Colt and came away happy. I have Colt, Ruger, S&W and Taurus blued steel 38/357 revolvers and have never had this problem, the 66-5 wasn't worth the trouble to correct the problem.

 

[OM18V]

The load you are are using should not be hot enough to cause leading, are you sure it is not the lube on the bullets.

It is surely lead. Thanks

 

[OM18V]

I suffered the same throat problem with a 66-5. I tried different bullets, different powders, 38 Special, 357 Magnum, low velocity. high velocity, changed primers, changed head stamps. All failed to eliminate leaded chamber throats. Forcing cone and bore were not leaded. I finally gave up and traded for a Colt and came away happy. I have Colt, Ruger, S&W and Taurus blued steel 38/357 revolvers and have never had this problem, the 66-5 wasn't worth the trouble to correct the problem.

Gee, thanks for the good news. lol

I've been thinking about putting the 66 back into house gun duty and buying a 52 for bullseye and giving up on trying the wheelgun.

Mike

 

[boatbum101]

You might want to try Remington HBWC's . They're sized larger & have a different type lube . I've gotten more than 1 batch of PD's that were undersized & leaded horribly . Now I only use Remington or Zero HBWC's . Old standby load was 2.7 BE . I prefer 3.1 - 3.2 W231, 2.5-2.8 WST . What kind of groups are you getting @ 50yds with 2.5 BE ?

 

[OM18V]

Uh, never mind. Don't believe it's the reloads. Darn gun's out of time.

Mike

 

[Paul5388]

If the leading is in the cylinder, it isn't a matter of timing.

 

[kshock]

I had the exact same problem only in a custom 686 PPC gun. However, I was shooting 3.2 gr of HP38 with Zero 148 HBWC's. Another PPC shooter was having the same issue with the same bullets. I switched to 148 gr HBWC Precision Delta's with the match lube, it is better but not completely gone. I use a Brownell's stainless chamber brush (on the cylinder only, don't use on the barrel) dry and it takes the leading right out. FWIW, I used to shoot 2.4 gr. of Clays with 148 Remington HBWC's and never had this problem, but they are dirty to load and I weighed each charge since that powder calls for 2.3 gr minimum, 2.5 grains max, which is not much wiggle room

 

[OM18V]

If the leading is in the cylinder, it isn't a matter of timing.

I don't know, it was just a guess. There is heavy leading to the frame on the right side of the entrance to the forcing cone (also underside of topstrap which I didn't find uncommon) and the heaviest in the cylinder is to the left. My guess was the bullet hitting the forcing cone and pitching left at the rear while still in the cyclinder.

That was my therory at least and what made me check the timing. One chamber seems good and 5 are off. This was my house gun that I had only shot FMJ or SD loads out of in the past and didn't have any issues. It wasn't until my attempt to shoot it for bullseye with hbwc that there was an issue.

Mike

 

[smokinwoody]

I wont use .38 brass in any of my .357's..I found excessive lead, dirty cylinder chambers...

when I switched to .357 brass that pretty much went away..I was loading out to approx 900 - 1,000fps using 158grn LSWC with 5.8grns of W256...very accurate but dirty powder..

I also use same powder in .45acp..5.2grns w/200grn LSWC..

 

[Paul5388]

My theory would go something like this, you have too small of a bullet at too low of pressure that is failing to obturate (upset/expand) sufficiently to fill the chamber. That allows escaping gas to cut the bullet and produces leading instead of expanding the hollow base to where it seals the chamber and prevents any gas to escape.

I would suggest a larger diameter bullet at a little higher pressure and see if that solves some of the leading problem.

 

[m1gunner]

Up your powder a touch and load the same bullet in 357 cases with a firm crimp.

Try that and see if it is better.

It wouldn't hurt to make sure your cylinder chambers are clean and polished before you start.

 

[shovelwrench]

My theory would go something like this, you have too small of a bullet at too low of pressure that is failing to obturate (upset/expand) sufficiently to fill the chamber. That allows escaping gas to cut the bullet and produces leading instead of expanding the hollow base to where it seals the chamber and prevents any gas to escape.

I would suggest a larger diameter bullet at a little higher pressure and see if that solves some of the leading problem.

This was my first thoughts too... Try upping the charge to 2.8, 2.9, and 3.0 and see if it goes away. And as others have stated try .357 brass, but, you'll have to up the charge slightly more for the same velocity. .357 brass, in my experience, at the same velocities will be more accurate then the .38 brass, YMMV.....

 

[OM18V]

So after thorough cleaning I hit the range today to try some new loads. 30 rounds 2.7gr and 30 rounds 2.8gr. Sorry, don't have any 357 brass. Even more leading with this load. Most, if not all of the leading is on the left side of the chambers (at 12 o'clock). Timing is off to the right.

I still think the timing issue may be part of the problem. Also after shooting these loads, I have leading all the way down the barrel and not just the forcing cone area. In fact, the recessed muzzle has a large amount of lead. That is after only 60 rounds. This was not an issue after several hundred rounds of 2.5gr. With 2.5 it was mostly just the chambers. Either something is amiss or this gun just dosen't like lead bullets. Remember, I had no issues as long as it was shooting FMJ.

This all began because I wanted to experiment with a wheelgun at my weekly bullseye shoot and this is the only weapon I had available.

 

[Paul5388]

If I was trying to shoot those bullets without leading I'd give them a bath in Lee Liquid Alox (LLA) or even Johnson's Paste Wax (JPW). I'd also check the diameter to see what they really are in size and make sure I bought larger diameter bullets than they are. I just checked some Hornady HBWC and found them to be .357", but I've never had any leading problems with them. Maybe it's their dry lube or maybe I just run them harder than you're trying to do.

As far as the timing, if the cylinder isn't spun with a little bit of vigor, the cylinder will many times fail to lock, which leaves it slightly to the right of where it's supposed to be. The problem is probably more pronounced in DA mode than SA mode. The hand that rotates the cylinder can be lengthened slightly or replaced.

Since I cast my own bullets, I shoot many of them as cast and lubed with LLA, or I use a .359" sizing die and White Label BAC lube.

 

[firearmsunlimited]

In the notable thread portion in this forum you will find this:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/172167-thoughts-bore-fouling-cleaning.html

It may be of some help.

 

[OM18V]

Yes, thanks. I did read that post.

Does anyone know why the cyclinder chambers would lead up on one side and not all the way around.

 

[Bulzi]

Have you measured the cylinder throats? You need to size your bullets 1-2 thou over the largest throat. Also it could be your lube (not enuff) but its sounds to me like your bullets are too small.

 

[OM18V]

Thanks for the suggestions. Turns out it was the Precision Delta hbwc bullets I was using.

Shot my reloads out of a friends K38 and had the same issues. Shot some of his reloads with dewc, don't know what brand, in my 66 and the leading issue was pretty much a moot point.

Now I sure do like that K38.