Expensive Prewar Kit Gun

[DCWilson]

There was a thread here a moment ago that the mods probably deleted because it had a live link to a Gunsamerica listing. If anyone wants to look at the item, it is item 975865914 over there. I composed a reply, but there was no place for it to go when I tried to post it. So I will start this new thread just to warn people again about the proper valuation of Kit Guns made before 1940.

The OP wondered what could possibly justify such a price for a prewar Kit Gun. I imagine the seller priced it out of the Blue Book, which is not just conventionally inaccurate in pricing prewar Kit guns, but spectacularly inaccurate.

In recent years, the highest sale price I have seen on a prewar KG was $4600, and that one to my mind reflected an excessively high bid further inflated by an auction house premium. Guns in high 90s condition have more commonly sold in the vicinity of $3000, and guns in this gun's condition routinely do NOT sell in the vicinity of $3000; there has been a constantly renewing example on Gunbroker for most of the last year.

I would consider $2200-2300 a fair price for the Gunsamerica gun, whose shape (I say 90%; the sellers' 90%++ is overstating the case) is nowhere near good enough to warrant a higher price. The stocks are not correct, having drifted in from a 1920s era I-frame, possible a Regulation Police. The pictures don't show what we would need to see to confirm the RP connection, but the lack of medallions points to the earlier date. All three varieties of original stocks on prewar KGs (round butt, square butt like these, extension stocks) had medallions.

The serial number of the gun in question can be seen in the photo: 534527. Large logo on sideplate indicates manufacture late 1938 or later. Probably shipped 1939-40, or maybe even postwar if it languished in inventory.

This gun has been offered before. It was on one of the sale/auction sites a few months ago at a similar price and -- unsurprisingly -- got no action. The seller is an FFL and should know how much to trust a value book and figure out a realistic (or only slightly unrealistic) price for a piece. The fact that he hasn't done that tells me he is hoping for an uninformed noob to pay the Blue Book's sucker price for the gun.

Some of the S&W traders on this forum have KGs currently available in the 2500-3000 range. Anyone who wants a KG (and I don't know why anyone wouldn't, because they are among the most attractive revolvers S&W ever made) should talk to them.

 

[H Richard]

Thank you for the "heads up". The one on Gunbroker (I think) has been on there for well over a year, and is still way over-priced.

 

[DCWilson]

Thank you for the "heads up". The one on Gunbroker (I think) has been on there for well over a year, and is still way over-priced.

Yes, the Gunbroker kit gun's seller is stuck at $3000 and never gets a bid. I consider it about a $2000 gun, and if the seller ever offered it starting at $1800 and with no reserve, he would get some action. I sent him a message once saying so. No reply.

Or rather, he replied by renewing the same ad without change at its next expiration. And then again after that. And then again...

 

[handejector]

Or rather, he replied by renewing the same ad without change at its next expiration. And then again after that. And then again...

He is endeavoring to persevere........

 

[Art Doc]

Is that engraved M&P with the $3500 starting price still going around and around? I saw it for several years being listed time and again with no bids but have lost track.

 

[lagavulin62]

dcwilson,

thanks for the very informative thread. I was the original poster and was hoping to get a reply like yours. I'm copying this for future reference.

I am lucky enough to own a kit gun, although not pre-war or of the 2-3000 range type. a pinned 34-1 in nickel that was probably around 96 or so percent when I bought it last year for 350 at a local pawn shop. I agree, everyone should own one and I always have my eye out for these.

 

[Bat Guano]

About 15 years ago when I was still reading the Shotgun News and/or Gun List, I saw a listing from out NY state way for Edward R. Murrow's Kit Gun. It was supposedly accompanied by some supporting paperwork from the family and had his name engraved on the gun; at least that was what the ad said. Price was indicated as $1200 or so. I immediately picked up the phone, only to be told that the gun had sold about a week earlier. Assuming that it was all true, I missed out on a piece of history there. Don't recall if the gun was pre or post war, but I sure would like to have gotten it as I admired the man.

Can't win 'em all.

 

[BruceHMX]

If I won the lottery and had 147 million I would buy everything on GB and AA that I liked. Lee would definitely give you a call as well!! Does anybody know of someone who's done that?? That would be way too cool. Sitting in my custom made log cabin in the middle of the woods with range out back opening all those boxes...lol... That's what dreams are made of.

 

[bullmack]

If I won the lottery and had 147 million I would buy everything on GB and AA that I liked. Lee would definitely give you a call as well!! Does anybody know of someone who's done that?? That would be way too cool. Sitting in my custom made log cabin in the middle of the woods with range out back opening all those boxes...lol... That's what dreams are made of.

The guns and log cabin would be cheap compared to the cost of all that ammo!

 

[Andy Griffith]

I think I tried to sell my pre-war kit gun two years ago for way less than that had a grip adapter on it when I found something else I wanted badly. Sure glad I didn't!

I think I may have to put it in a safe deposit box.

Do you think that the prices on these may stabilize or even come down- in the long run- as the collector market evolves and changes with time? I do understand that if one collector with lots of dough enters the market and he chooses just once "specialty," the whole order of the market can be upset overnight. It may sound like I'm talking like an investor, which I am certain everyone would like to see their purchase increase in value, but I don't think firearms are a good investment at all- other than for the enjoyment of ownership regardless of the cost of the piece.

I am but an uneducated, mountain farm boy, so take this with a grain of salt.
I've always hear it said,
"If you want to make a small fortune in the gun business, start with a large one."

 

[DCWilson]

I think I tried to sell my pre-war kit gun two years ago for way less than that had a grip adapter on it when I found something else I wanted badly. Sure glad I didn't!

I think I may have to put it in a safe deposit box.

Do you think that the prices on these may stabilize or even come down- in the long run- as the collector market evolves and changes with time? I do understand that if one collector with lots of dough enters the market and he chooses just once "specialty," the whole order of the market can be upset overnight. It may sound like I'm talking like an investor, which I am certain everyone would like to see their purchase increase in value, but I don't think firearms are a good investment at all- other than for the enjoyment of ownership regardless of the cost of the piece.

I am but an uneducated, mountain farm boy, so take this with a grain of salt.
I've always hear it said,
"If you want to make a small fortune in the gun business, start with a large one."

I'm working on making my first small fortune right now.

Actually I think the market in prewar KGs has started to come down a little already. The first one I bought (about 15 months ago) had languished on consignment shelf at $3000 for quite some time before being remarked at $2500. A couple of months later, I won another one that had its original box in no-reserve (or reasonable opening bid) auction for $2700, as I recall -- maybe $2800. The seller had tried to talk up its blue-book value and hinted that it might be worth way more than anybody else (ultimately meaning me and some other guy who wrestled for it) thought it was. I have recently seen a couple of guns advertised for prices that I think would be about 10 percent lower than what would have been asked in 2007 or 2008. But the market is so small that any single sale can be overinterpreted.

I have never seen a grip adapter on a Prewar Kit Gun, but I image a J-frame Tyler could be made to fit, sort of. If you have pictures of your revolver, I'd love to see them. And if you are willing to share the serial number, I'd appreciate it. I try to keep track of these. Even though I don't know the actual production figures, by working backward from other numbers I have guessed that not more than 1500 were produced between 1936 and 1940, if even that many. I have heard second hand that some S&W specialists think there may have been no more than a thousand of them. If that's true, they are as rare as the K-22 Second Model, which was produced only in 1940 (and which can still be had at prices below those of Prewar Kit Guns, if that's any indication of market and demand).

Yes, a single deep-pockets collector with a jones for a particular model can seriously distort one corner of a collector market.

 

[Pontiaker]

I saw one sell on the Junction website for a hair over $8k. But I think is was one of the rare post war/pre war style guns? Anyone else remember this one?

I have my early one with Kings target sights front and rear and a custom lengthened hammer in about 90% condition. I really need to get it lettered and see if it shipped to someone special. I would consider selling mine for the right price.

I also have one I made up from a Beakert that had a bulged barrel. I found a nos 4 inch barrel on Gunbroker and stuck it in placed of the bulged barrel, this is my shooter/carry plinker.

 

[DCWilson]

I don't know what "the Junction website" is, but I'd like to.

The postwar transitional kit guns, of which there are even fewer than of the prewar guns, were made between about 1950 and 1953 when the new "Model of 1953" guns were introduced. The Edward R. Murrow kit gun mentioned in a post above was one of this variety. Ordinarily the transitional guns don't sell for as much as the prewar guns, but I guess anything is possible. If there was a sale at $8000, I would think it might be for the fabulously rare postwar transitional variety of the .22/32 HE Target model. These are so rare that some people think they don't even exist. If anyone can give me info about this sale, I'd love to know about it.

 

[BlackAgnes]

With respect to the "Transitional" Kit Guns, one interesting feature is the supplied screwdriver--I believe these to be unique to this model. They may be the rarest of all these "sight adjusting tools".

As David knows, I was fortunate enough to be able to buy one of these scarce guns on an auction site--the seller wouldn't sell to Californians, or else I think it would now be residing at the Wilson house!

The gun came with the original box and screwdriver and I feel lucky to have the set.

As regards the value, who can say? Pricing my Kit Gun would be exceedingly difficult for me.

I agree with David--these are truly elegant little revolvers.

Tim

 

[Pontiaker]

I don't know what "the Junction website" is, but I'd like to.

The postwar transitional kit guns, of which there are even fewer than of the prewar guns, were made between about 1950 and 1953 when the new "Model of 1953" guns were introduced. The Edward R. Murrow kit gun mentioned in a post above was one of this variety. Ordinarily the transitional guns don't sell for as much as the prewar guns, but I guess anything is possible. If there was a sale at $8000, I would think it might be for the fabulously rare postwar transitional variety of the .22/32 HE Target model. These are so rare that some people think they don't even exist. If anyone can give me info about this sale, I'd love to know about it.

Ill try and find the info for you, my dad may have even printed it out. My dad also has one of the .32 transitional target guns, I think like 197 were made, something like that?

 

[Pontiaker]

Iam also in CA and frequently buy guns from dealers who wont ship to CA. There is a FFL dealer who has a website and his business is called Freakshow Manufacturing. He will accept the gun from the "unimformed?" seller, and then ship it to your FFL dealer in CA. He is a stand up guy and has done this with many pistols for my pop and me, of course these are all C&R pistols that are comepletly legal to bring into CA.It does end up costing a little more but its worth it most of the time.
Matt

With respect to the "Transitional" Kit Guns, one interesting feature is the supplied screwdriver--I believe these to be unique to this model. They may be the rarest of all these "sight adjusting tools".

As David knows, I was fortunate enough to be able to buy one of these scarce guns on an auction site--the seller wouldn't sell to Californians, or else I think it would now be residing at the Wilson house!

The gun came with the original box and screwdriver and I feel lucky to have the set.

As regards the value, who can say? Pricing my Kit Gun would be exceedingly difficult for me.

I agree with David--these are truly elegant little revolvers.

Tim