Factory 38 Spl 158 gr RNL vs SWC

[crstrode]

There were two many cases of these bullets failing to incapacitate quickly enough.

Will you please provide a source of incapacitation data comparing LRN (Lead Round Nose), WC (Wadcutters), SWC (Semi-WadCutters, and other bullet shapes fired from the same guns?

I've asked this several times in the past and have always been provided with nothing but the sound of crickets . . .

Wisecracks have been delivered along with anecdotal rumors - but no actual data.

 

[sigp220.45]

This matter was settled in 1971 when an NYPD officer dropped Skandy the polar bear with a single 158 grain LRN.

I will now bask in the glory of turning this zombie into a bear thread.

Bear Killed to Save Man Who Put Arm Into Cage - The New York Times

 

[rockquarry]

Will you please provide a source of incapacitation data comparing LRN (Lead Round Nose), WC (Wadcutters), SWC (Semi-WadCutters, and other bullet shapes fired from the same guns?

I've asked this several times in the past and have always been provided with nothing but the sound of crickets . . .

Wisecracks have been delivered along with anecdotal rumors - but no actual data.

Actual documented data will likely be sparse, but there may be some. The 158 gr. round nose lead .38 Special load has been denigrated for so long that many believe it as gospel and keep preaching it, without fact basis. The Internet has greatly helped their cause.

 

[Doug M.]

Look at the IWBA studies and see what Fackler and Roberts have found. Placement is king; penetration is queen. I am sure that the training on aiming points was crud through well into the 80s, but if you need to shoot someone, you need every bit of advantage on your side. The offender dying in 2 weeks is little value if you have not stopped their immediate actions.

Query: How many handgun hunters use RNL? How many use SWC? It borders on utterly irresponsible to use RNL .38s or FMJ 9mm ball.

 

[Chuck Edwards]

Look at the IWBA studies and see what Fackler and Roberts have found. Placement is king; penetration is queen. I am sure that the training on aiming points was crud through well into the 80s, but if you need to shoot someone, you need every bit of advantage on your side. The offender dying in 2 weeks is little value if you have not stopped their immediate actions.

Query: How many handgun hunters use RNL? How many use SWC? It borders on utterly irresponsible to use RNL .38s or FMJ 9mm ball.

I think the bolded part is the crux of the matter. My impression is that most agencies used the B27 target for training and quals. Shooting at the X on that target yields a nice gut shot in real life, which won't stop a determined bad guy, at least not right away. Current targets are much better at teaching shot placement. If anyone wants a good practice target for self defense, the IDPA target is pretty good in terms of required shot placement.

 

[Pointblank2U]

The late Paul Harrell did some extensive testing on standard pressure 38 Special loads. The old 158 grain RNL did pretty darn good on his "meat target".

 

[jimmyj]

In my area you carry what is available. Sometimes decent. 38 loads, sometimes not so decent .38 loads. Choice between 158 grain LRN or an empty weapon.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Wow! RN 158 .38,bear and Zombie threads all rolled up into one! I MUST chime in!!
First, like Doug said hit where you aim at!!!
I like fixed sight revolvers and they are all regulated to historical bullet weights .
My 681 shoots to aim using 158 gr bullets. It doesn’t care what the profile is.
I use 158 gr for .38/357; 95 gr ball for .380; 115 ball for 9mm; 230 gr ball for .45acp and 240 gr weight for .44 magnum. Use .55gr in 5.56.
That’s what each was made for and they is cheaper than the whizz bang 20 per box super duper kill them dead right there there defense rounds sold in the boutique section.

 

[SWFan27]

That is the last round I would choose for home defense. And I would not use a snub nose for home defense unless it was the only thing I owned.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Query: How many handgun hunters use RNL? How many use SWC? It borders on utterly irresponsible to use RNL .38s or FMJ 9mm ball.

I am now familiar with a Polar Bear that was taken with a .38 Special 158 grain LRN in 1971.

On the matter of Record Book Bears of the Polar and/or Grizzly variety. The largest ever bagged was by a woman with a .22 rifle.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

... I am sure that the training on aiming points was crud through well into the 80s, but if you need to shoot someone, you need every bit of advantage on your side.

Don't forget Targets do not have arms so the bad guy who has a gun pointed at you is likely covering the "aiming point" with his firearm, hands and arms.

I been to several Officer Involved Shootings where the bad guy as well as the cop's weapon were hit by bullets. That is why cop's need a BUG.

Miami 1986 - Agent Dove's S&W 459 was disabled by a bad guy's bullet hitting the slide.

One for the good guys; a bad guy was armed with a S&W 59 and was in a shootout with cops. A incoming round hit the bottom of the grip knocking the bottom off the magazine and dumping all the 9mm cartridges on the ground. Good guys win shootout.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Wow! RN 158 .38,bear and Zombie threads all rolled up into one! I MUST chime in!!


That’s what each was made for and they is cheaper than the whizz bang 20 per box super duper kill them dead right there there defense rounds sold in the boutique section.

Spot on, on both accounts.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I got them but I prefer .22 LR for zombies.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Open Question to all: Where is your aiming point on this bad guy target? In real life the fact the bad guy has a firearm is quite a distraction.

 

[Chuck Edwards]

Two answers:

1) - If he's that close and has his gun aimed at you, you're screwed.

2) - Right below his right eye, which would get his brain. And if you jerked it low, you'd still get the hand holding the gun.

 

[Greyman50]

Nice shooting. I would guess 3.5 grains of Bullseye behind a 158 grain LSWC.

5.1 grns Unique. About out and none to be found so have to figure another powder……