Factory FMJ Pistol Ammo As Penetrater?

[NiklasP]

Hello!

I have become interested in factory FMJ pistol ammo as a possible penetrating round for specific uses outdoors. Specifically, I am interested in Sellier & Bellot's 158 grain FMJ .357 and 38 Special ammo. The .357 is listed as 1263 fps and 560 fps. The 38 Spl is listed as 889 fps and 277 fps, essentially a SAAMI +P load, although I presume both .357 and 38 Special are loaded to CIP standards. Both appear to use the same truncated cone, flat point FMJ bullets, thus would appear to approximate a hardcast, flat point lead bullet in performance. These would generally be used in .357 Mag chambered revolvers with 4-6 inch barrels, possibly in a J-frame with 2 inch barrel.

I have the following questions:
1) Are the FMJs strong enough to keep the bullet intact, especially at .357 velocities?

2) Anyone have any actual experience shooting these into small game, especially edible birds, such as grouse, turkeys? Ditto for use against bigger, perhaps attacking critters?

Thanks,
Niklas

 

[OKFC05]

Not quite sure exactly what you're asking, but I'll tackle a couple of points.

First, those are test barrel speeds, and you are not going to get them out of a 4' barrel, and nowhere close out of a 2" snub.

Second, a shotgun is preferred for grouse and turkey, but if you can catch them sitting, you can kill them with a .22. I use a .22 magnum rifle for fall turkey hunting when they are all bunched up and I don't want to hit several at one shot with a shotgun.

Third, a FMJ is a pathetic poor hunting bullet, and in Oklahoma and most other states, FMJ is illegal for shooting game animals. A softnose or expanding bullet is required by most states' game laws for game animals. A 158gr softnose out of my 686 penetrates through a coyote, and is more than enough to kill one. Of course, you have to hit it first, so getting close is the real challenge.
Hope this helps.

 

[30-30remchester]

I as well am interested in FMJ bullets used on game. Many big game calibers of the past had FMJ loadings. These were specifically used for fur bearing animals. I would as well like to hear some actual stories of their use.

 

[lebomm]

Washington, too, outlaws FMJ bullets for use on any game animal.

Larry

 

[NiklasP]

OKFC05,

Thanks for attempt to answer my post. Sorry I was not more clear. Below I will take more care to explain.

I have been hunting for about 60 years, using rifles, pistols, shotguns, on quail to turkeys/geese, deer, elk, etc., that is not my primary concern here. I do take time to learn what guns and ammo are legal where ever I hunt -- kinda essential in USA, with its big diversity in hunting laws from state to state. BTY, I have only killed turkeys with downloaded centerfire rifles, usually 7mm -- nearly no meat damage because bullets expanded little or not at all at muzzle velocities of 1500-2000 fps -- always 1 shot, 1 dead turkey, until last year when first hit did not kill cleanly. Also used these loads for grouse, rabbits, etc.

One of guns I remember from early years was used by a neighbor for lots of different critters. It was a 32-20 with FMJ bullets, much like those in the Seiller & Bellot .357 and 38 Spl loads. Worked really well, quail to deer, placed in right place on deer, of course. Little more damage to quail, grouse, etc, with body shots, than .22LR hollow points, but more reliably quick kills. Velocities were maybe 1200 fps at muzzle. I used flat point lead bullets from another 32-20 with nearly same results, mostly on foxes but many edible critters too. 32-20s were once very popular, for good reason, they killed well with well placed shots. Wondering if the Seiller & Bellot FMJ loads noted would give similar performance -- excellent killing performance, minimal meat damage, plenty of penetration and bone-breaking ability.

But now, being in my early 70s, I really don't want to tote a rifle or shotgun, even light weight ones, for long, either hiking or hunting. Yet, I love to roam when big game season is not in session. Shot lots of critters with pistols in years past with 22LR revolvers and target pistols. Today it would be .357s, with either .357 or 38 ammo. Now, like then, I have to be concerned about feral dogs, plus pumas in some areas. I know I can shoot loads of the ballistics of these two S&B loads well with my revolvers, especially since I normally only shoot revolvers from well steadied positions at live game -- that takes care of hunting. Feral dogs and pumas, especially feral dogs, are a different matter. Sure, a fast expanding bullet would be nice, but, I would not hunt with them, rifle or pistol because they are too unreliable and destroy too much meat. A 158 grain flat pointed bullet, FMJ or hard cast lead, through shoulders, etc, of a threatening feral dog should mean one less such dog. Pumas have always kept their distance, and, yes, I know they frequent the places I hunt or would hunt. I see their tracks in snow, their scat, their kills.

Hence my two questions: 1) durability of the FMJs of these bullets on game, at least medium sized critters, and 2) should I expect performance on flesh and bones much like that of the 32-20 bullets mentioned above and like the popular hard cast, big meplats bullets for handgun hunting loads?

Yes, I reload since early teenage years, for all my shooting, incluiding hunting. SO, other than 22 rf and some shotshells, this would be a deviation from lifelong habit.

Thank you,
Niklas

 

[photoman]

Interesting question. Most FMJ loads are round nose and will do very little damage to bone and tissue. Penetration is usually very deep, if not through and through (especially on a small, light skinned animal like a dog).

I would think a good lead SWC would be the best choice bigger animals. For dogs, coyotes, etc., I would recommend a good JHP like Cor Bon DPX.

 

[NiklasP]

So far as I know, the ban on "full metal jacketed bullets" for hunting is solely aimed at military spitzer FMJ bullets and big game.

I hear all the stories about round nosed bullets, FMJ or Lead Round Nose, penetrating and just making a caliber-sized hole. Seen this lots with .22rf Round Nose bullets.

I am also aware that 30-30 FMJ bullets, intended for trappers, have flat noses, perhaps simply because of tubular mags. The flat nosed 32-20 bullets were most certainly flat nosed because of tubular mags. Could that be reason for flat noses on .357 and 38 Specal FMJ bullets -- what with all the modern lever guns in these calibers?

Why should a flat nosed hard cast bullet be great killer but not a flat nosed FMJ?

FYI, I do load my favorite 158 grain Remington swaged SWC, but not at velocity of the S&B .357 load with 158 grain FMJ bullet. Also, would want to keep my "roaming loads" easily separate -- absent minded old guy kinda reasons.

Also, would not want to be changing ammo, from that for edible critters to that for nefarious ones, on short notice, in field, should a nefarious one or more appear.

Niklas

 

[alwslate]

I would think a good 9mm auto like a Beretta 92 with high cap. mags
loaded with full power ( 1200 fps ) 124 gr ball ammo would fit your
needs. I think you would gain very little killing power from a flat on the
bullet nose.

 

[NiklasP]

I never did learn to shoot Beretta 92 well enough for small game hunting. For a pack of feral dogs, could be great. However, in many decades of roaming and encountering feral dogs, never needed to shoot any to protect myself. Been ready to a few times, but, they seemed to know what guns are and ran away. Some even had collars, so maybe not so feral and good thing I did not shoot them.

We did shoot feral dogs that were bothering cattle -- chasing cattle got the death penalty.

Niklas

 

[OKFC05]

Here's a commercial load I have used that is soft-nosed to comply with game laws, and has the power to kill anything you said you will encounter. I would recommend it for deep penetration over any 158gr bullet I've used.

Winchester Supreme .357 loaded with Partition Gold Bullet: a fully jacketed rear section with a smaller soft point up front. The penetration of this 180gr bullet has to be seen to be believed.
Product Symbol: S357P
Description:

Proven Partition Technology
Consistent, Dramatic Bullet Expansion
Deep Penetration Regardless of Barrel Length
Maximum Weight Retention
http://www.winchester.com/products/handgun-ammunition/supreme/partition-gold/Pages/S357P.aspx

 

[NiklasP]

OK, Nosler Partition bullets had not entered my mind! My favorite elk bullet is Nosler Partition 7mm, 175 grain bullet - lots of penetration and enough of expansion at 7X57 muzzle velocities. Never paid any attention to Nosler Partition pistol bullets.

Thanks OKFC05! These bullets I would load myself. Probably only shoot them in Ruger Blackhawks.

Niklas

 

[NiklasP]

Having a bit of trouble initially finding that Winchester Partition Gold .357 load for sale. Did find a very similar load from Federal, using Swift A-Frame bullets and sold by MidwayUSA. Any experience with this load?

I like it that neither of these 180 grain loads are very high velocity, should make for easier hitting and advertised trajectories are good enough for 75 yard zeros and "point blank" holds on anything at shorter distances.

Hopefully, one or other will give nice groups on first shot from cold barrels, as I commonly see with longer-for-caliber bullets. Should do excellent for anything I might hunt with it, as well as nefarious critters.

Expensive, but few will be fired after sight-in. Too "wimpy" to use legally for deer hunting in Colorado -- only Buffalo Bore's 180 grain .357 meets Colorado's requirement for striking energy at 50 yards -- not a problem, I have not been deer hunting for years.

Thanks,
Niklas

 

[NiklasP]

Ordered box of Nosler Partition bullets, 0,357, 180 grains from Wideners today. Some week soon I should have first chrono and group size data, powders will be 2400 and/or H-110. Goal is 1150 fps or so and 3,0 inch groups at 50 paces. Then I will start a target with 1,0 shot groups from cold barrel, as if hunting. That process will take till turkey season in September.

Thanks to all for advice and information,
Niklas