Fanatical 38 Reloading

[OLD SKOOL]

In looking for some 38 HBWC swaged bullets, I read a product
review that got my attention. It made one re-think the conventional reloading process. Step one was to clean,deprime,
and neck expand the case, no FL sizing. This made for a snug,
non bullet deforming case that the bullet was seated into in
the conventional manner. The case was primed and charged
with powder prior to this step, of course.

Next was a light taper crimp with the bullet seated flush. One
could either fire it at this point, or THEN full length size it to
insure proper fit in the cylinder. With this bullet, (HBWC) it
was claimed to have better accuracy. I can see theoretical
advantage in not deforming/swaging a bullet, but if will upset
to proper size from normal chamber pressure, what is to be
gained?

If I still had my Ransom Rest I could try these variations and
see for myself. So, does anyone have a experience or thought
on this technique?

 

[Troystat]

I have never tried that, let us know if you do and how it turns out. I have always done a full length re-sizing and the end results have been ammo that is better than me

Troy

 

[john traveler]

The reloading of fired cases without resizing has been tried before. The results are usually less than stellar performance because of the dimensional variations from firing in different chambers.

As for sizing the loaded cartridge, that REALLY deforms the bullet, because you have no control over case wall thickness variations except by sorting and selecting identical headstamps, from identical lots.

If you really want match-winning quality ammunition, you will have to work for the ballistic uniformity that will give it to you. Sorted headstamps, same lot of brass fired same number of times, case lengths trimmed uniformly, sized and expanded uniformly, primed with good primers, charged with accurate powder charges, and seated with quality bullets. Generations of competitive shooters have proven that this actually works. And you are willing to believe a shortcut sales gimmick?

 

[john traveler]

Oh, yes: in case you are wondering, in my younger days (daze?) I reloaded several hundred rounds of match wadcutter ammunition just like you described. No case sizing, flush seating, and taper crimp. The results as I described: fist-sized groups at 20 yards, when the same bullets loaded in properly prepared cases would give 1" to 1 1/2" groups at the same distance when slow-fired over sand bag rests. The final insult was not the crummy accuracy, but ending up with a double handful of rounds that would not chamber properly. A waste of time and good components.

 

[matsu]

That type of loading works in a semi auto just one chamber no way in a revolver you just can't get the cartridge back into the same chamber's it was fired in, a variation of neck sizing in a rifle

 

[Kirmdog]

I do this all the time when loading for my Model 14 and shooting it in NRA bullseye matches. I use a load of 2.8 BE in Rem case w/ Rem SPP and seat the bullet (Rem HBWC) out so that about 1/8 of an inch is exposed out of the case and touching the chamber throats. I have noted a marked improvment when I load this way as compared to FL resizing and seating flush. I never had a problem getting cases to seat in the chambers. They don't fall in the cylinder like factory ammo but nothing more than a slight push at the most to get them seated and not because of the cases but rather the bullet being seated out and getting pushed into the chamber throats.

Don't full lenght resize after the bullet is seated. The brass will have some springback but the lead HBWC will not leaving the bullet loose in the case and undersize for the throats. That equals leading and poor accuracy.

With this method I'm talking about are loads for NRA Bullseye target shooting. I would never use this method for ammo that I intended to use for self defence. In that case I would always FL resize.

Kirmdog

 

[sjmjax]

I'm going to try a variation on that theme with my next .38 special HBWC and/or DEWC reloading session.

Plan to use the slightly oversize .38 S&W sizing die instead of the regular .38 special die.

Will post a follow-up if I see any noticable improvement in accuracy.
May also include a variation or two in bullet seating length.

Have tended lately to seat all WC loadings flush for universal use between revolvers & the 52. Might be time to experiment with specialized loads again.

 

[Kirmdog]

I'm going to try a variation on that theme with my next .38 special HBWC and/or DEWC reloading session.

Plan to use the slightly oversize .38 S&W sizing die instead of the regular .38 special die.

Will post a follow-up if I see any noticable improvement in accuracy.
May also include a variation or two in bullet seating length.

Have tended lately to seat all WC loadings flush for universal use between revolvers & the 52. Might be time to experiment with specialized loads again.

Don't think this would work with DEWC. The reason for doing this with Remingtom HBWC is because the bullet measures .363 or larger on the back skirt. If a person was going to FL size the cases and then try to seat the Rem HBWC without belling the mouth a tremendous amount they would shave lead off of the bullet when seated and because the bullet being soft it would be sized down to the inside dimentions of the case, not good for accuracy! If you leave the case unsized for the DEWC then it will be too loose in the case and you will get blow-by and ruin your accuracy.
Even with cases that are NOT FL sized, just decaped and belled the Remington HBWC is a tight fit.

I too shoot a 52 along with my 14 in competition and the reloading proceedures and night and day apart. While the 52 needs FL resizing and flush seated WC's to function the 14 does better reloaded like I had described. With the Model 14 DEWC's do better for me when seated out so they are just touching the throats in the cylinders, all cases FL resized and with a medium crimp on one of the driving bands. One other thing I do with DEWC's is bump the powder charge to 3.1 of BE. That being said, the 14 shoots best with no FL resizing and the Remington HBWC. The comparision between the HBWC's and DEWC's is enough that I don't use the DEWC's in competition with my 14, only the HBWC's.

To check between the two loading proceedures you mentioned you will need a Ransom Rest to get the true results.

Kirmdog

 

[Kirmdog]

old skool;

Back to your question. IMO the thing that is gained by not FL sizing is that there is less blow-by between the case and cylinder wall with light target loads and the bullet is not deformed and fitting the cylinder throats from the getgo. As an example when I use Fl sized cases in my Model 14 and with light target loads I get sooty cases where I can see that gas has blown by the case. I also get an abnormal amount of soot on the recoil sheild except for where the case rim and around where the firing pin hole is because the case has moved back into the recoil shield. This is because the brass case moved back upon firing but did not expand to seal the cylinder. When I don't FL size this soot on the cases and recoil shield are noticably less because the case doesn't have to expand as much to seal the chamber hole in the cylinder with these light target loads. My belief is that this takes one more veriable out of the equation or at least lessens it so that the SD is more even from shot to shot.

The other thing gained is the obvious of not deforming the bullet when seating it.

Kirmdog

 

[TSQUARED]

OLD SKOOL,
I have loaded the Remigton 148 gr. LHBWC with 2.8 gr. Bullseye and Rem 1.5 primers for almost 50 years. I full length size the cases, bell the mouths enough to accept the base, seat flush with the case mouth and apply a very light roll crimp. It has worked for me in revolvers and later in my S&W 52.

 

[OLD SKOOL]

I am happy for all the varied comments on this topic. Just for
the record, my loadings are for a Model 14-4, and two Model
10's, both are PPC revolvers, built by Al Marvel. I will pose
this loading technique to him and get his opinion. As I recall
his testing, with Federal factory loads, 148 grain WC would
make 1 1/2" group at 50 yards in a Ransom Rest. This is hard
to improve on.

One other note, the chamber ID in my cylinders is as follows:
Model 14-4 .357 - .3575
Model 10-5 .3565 - .357
Model 10-8 .357 no variance found at all!

Perhaps the use of a Brownells cylinder throating reamer
part # 513-000-078 is helping in uniforming the size of the
chambers. My PPC guns had this done to them, my model
14-4 remaing untouched.