FBI Carry Question 1950-1975

[j38]

What would the options be for an FBI agent to carry during this period? The gentleman in question was a lawyer primarily assigned to forensics in the DC office He wasn't seriously into guns - from daughters who have zero interest.

Thanks, Jerry

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I would wager a Colt Detective Special/Agent/Cobra or S&W J-frame. That goes back far enough it could even be an I frame, I think.

The most common gun for street agents in that period, I think, we a 4" barreled Model 10 S&W. Also, the field agents might have had Model 13s but for a guy in the laboratory and doing "CSI" type of work I'd surely guess a snubby.

A K frame snub is possible, too. I would have to look them up to see when they were available but, surely, during those 25 years there were some.

There are some historical websites you can check to be certain.

 

[dscampbell]

One of my instructors in community college was a retired FBI agent 1942-1962. He carried a Colt 4" all his career. His retirement gift was a S&W model 19 2 1/2 "


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[Absalom]

Here is a convenient overview:

American Rifleman | A History of FBI Handguns

 

[italiansport]

My next door neighbor was an FBI Agent when I lived in Illinois in the 1980s. As I remember it S&W did a special run of their issue gun(S&W Model 13?) that the Agents could buy with their ID engraved on it. He had purchased one and I remember handling it briefly when he received it but this was over 30 years ago.
Jim

 

[kaaskop49]

The SA I met briefly in 1978 carried a 2.5" bbl Model 10.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

 

[rednichols]

Here is a convenient overview:

American Rifleman | A History of FBI Handguns

Thanks, big help .

 

[jaymoore]

I bought an early Model 66 4" with holster from a retired FBI agent who stated he carried it quite regularly in the 1970's. I would have to suppose it was a personal weapon, though.

 

[crazyphil]

First agency issue was Colts Official Police 4" barrel in 1934.
Last agency issue revolver was model 13 3" barrel.
Quite a few issued and authorized revolvers in between.
Some of their better choices IMO were the model 10 4",
the model 19, and the model 13.

 

[jimmyj]

I began LEO in 1962. My agency sent me to a FBI Training school. The issue FBI service revolver at that time was a Colt and Smith and Wesson .38 spl six shot revolver with a four inch barrel (blued).

 

[sigp220.45]

The Bureau standard issue handgun has always been a full sized gun - in the time frame you specify it would be the Colt Official Police or the Smith M&P (later the Model 10 and Model 13). The first real nod to concealability was the 2 1/2" Model 10 and then the 3" Model 13, both with round butts.

When I became an agent in 1991 the 1076 had just flamed out and my class was issued Sig 226s off the DEA's contract. Even at that relatively late date the POW (privately owned weapon) list was a thing to behold - any steel framed S&W .38 or .357, stainless or blue, with a barrel between 2 and four inches was good to go. J-frames (known is Bu-speak as "five-shots") were very popular, as were 2 1/2" Model 19s and 66s.

A lot of the older guys still carried their 4" Model 10s. The common practice was to allow retiring agents to buy their guns for a nominal amount - I think a Model 10 was $120. This changed about 1993 and since then all issued guns were turned back in. Most were destroyed. Once I requested some role-player Simunition guns for a hostage negotiation class and I got a Pelican case with 12 4" Model 10s, their diamond magnas painted bright orange and the cylinder sleeved so they couldn't take real ammo.

The only Colt I ever saw in an agent's holster was a 4" Trooper carried by a grumpy dinosaur who had it grandfathered in since the 70s.

Revolvers haven't been authorized at all since the end of 2000. The POW list has shrunk to a couple of Glocks, and I believe those will go away soon.

I was lucky that my POW Sig P220 kept getting grandfathered in and I could carry the same gun my entire career.

 

[Old cop]

I was a cop in a jurisdiction just outside Washington, DC from 1968 - 1997 and every agent I ever met carried a 4" Model 10, some backed it up w/a J frame. I'm not sure what they carried after they phased out their revolvers.

 

[Texas Star]

I visited the Dallas field office about 1960, as a HS field trip. I was the only student especially interested in guns, and they let me into the gun locker.

They had a few five-inch Model 27's or pre 27's with really slick actions and four-inch Model 10's, all standard barrels.

Later, an agent spoke at my school on Career Day. I asked about his gun. It was a Model 49 Bodyguard, left in his car.

I once assisted an agent looking for a fugitive wanted for interstate flight and car theft. He was a new guy, very glad of the help. He had a four-inch M-10 and a sort of pancake holster. I'd recall the brand if anyone mentions it. He had a belt pouch with six spare rounds in sets of two.

I asked, and no Airweights were allowed, but otherwise, about any steel S&W in blue or stainless. No nickel. Had to be a .38 or .357.

This parallels what SIG P-220 already posted. By that time the DS was the only Colt still authorized.

The .357 ammo issued to agents who had permission to carry Magnum loads was Winchester's 145 grain Silvertip. Dallas PD also issued that to officers wanting .357 ammo. It was VERY effective in actual gun fights.

The lead HP ammo in .38 usually worked, too. One Dallas cop using it killed six felons with his issued S&W M-64.

I shot on a range with an agent using a Glock M-19, but this was much later than the time period specified.

If I was writing a novel set in the time frame specified, I'd give the lab man a four-inch M-10, but he'd usually leave it at home or in his briefcase and wear a M-36 snub.

I visited the FBI Bldg. in 1957, with my father, on vacation. They had a really nice demo of the Tommygun and revolvers. I asked the escort agent about snubs. He said he had one that he carried in his overcoat in winter. Otherwise, the men he knew all carried four-inch Colt OP's or S&W M-10's.

One of those interesting boys' books by C.B. Colby dealt with the FBI and their guns were mainly Colt OP's and S&W M-10's. He showed Winchester .351 rifles & Remington .30 rifles and Winchester M-12 shotguns. Later shotguns were Remington 870's and the rifles were replaced with AR-15's or M-16's. . H-K MP-5 SMG's replaced Thompsons and a semi-auto H-K SMG in 10 mm was available. But this was well past 1975.

Women agents sued to carry J-frame S&W's instead of M-13's. I don't quite grasp this, as blued or stainless J-frames were already authorized.

S&W M-19's and M-66's were popular private purchases, and both 2.5 and four-inch barrels were used. In the 1986 shootout in Miami, Agent Mireles ended the battle with .38 lead HP's fired from his own M-586. But that's beyond your 1975 date, and Mireles was no lab man.

 

[Texas Star]

Retired spcl. agent Larry Wack shows up here occasionally. He's an FBI historian. You may have seen him on TV in a series about famous FBI cases.

He's mentioned Bureau guns. That corresponds with what I said above.

Why was the Colt Official Police the first issued? I suspect that Hoover asked NYPD, and that was their main gun.

Oddly, the Colt Police Positive Special seems not to have been popular. If the Detective Special was authorized, why not this longer barreled version? It'd be handier and easier to conceal than the OP.

 

[sigp220.45]

Women agents sued to carry J-frame S&W's instead of M-13's. I don't quite grasp this, as blued or stainless J-frames were already authorized.

J frames were authorized as POWs, but to get through the Academy they had to qualify with the issue gun, which I think was the Model 13 at the time. The ones who sued had been washed out of the Academy for not qualifying.

Everyone also has to qualify with the 870. The women in my class all did, but they sure had some purple shoulders.

When I was going through the hiring process, I had to sit in the local office and dry fire a Model 13 fifty times with each hand. I didn't question anything at the time, but I suspect it had to do with the suit.

I also had to affirm I could drive a car with a standard transmission, though I have never seen a Bucar with anything but an automatic. And I had to provide my hat size, which I happened to know from the Air Force. The other guy said - I don't know. Large?

I hoped it meant I was getting a fedora, but that never happened. It was just another Hoover hold-over, twenty years after his death.

 

[Texas Star]

Brad-

I think the hat size question had to do with Hoover not liking men that he considered to be "pin heads." That's what I've read...

Thanks for the clarification about the J-frames.

As for the shotgun, a former female agent who writes for women's magazines complained about the 12 ga. recoil in an article or book I read.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Retired spcl. agent Larry Wack shows up here occasionally. He's an FBI historian. You may have seen him on TV in a series about famous FBI cases.

He's mentioned Bureau guns. That corresponds with what I said above.

Why was the Colt Official Police the first issued? I suspect that Hoover asked NYPD, and that was their main gun.

Oddly, the Colt Police Positive Special seems not to have been popular. If the Detective Special was authorized, why not this longer barreled version? It'd be handier and easier to conceal than the OP.

In actuality, agents of the BOI (later re-named the FBI) were permitted to carry guns much earlier than 1934. See the following:

FBI Firearms: Myth Of The '34 Crime Bill

and

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...0658f0cbac270/1198320999483/1000w/McHenry.JPG

Also see the inventory of bureau equipment turned in when Agent Jentzer left the bureau in 1919:

SA Roy McHenry - Evidence Of Early Handguns

As to why the Bureau adopted the Colt Police Positive, it had nothing to do with the NYPD. Director Hoover had a weapons committee study the question of not only handguns, but shotguns, rifles, and machine guns. His committee made recommendations, and the Director adopted the recommendations. See:

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...81fc73da2185/1486551033385/33GunCommittee.pdf

Also, the first "issue gun" was not the Colt OP, but the Police Positive in 38 Special. There was apparently some push back as some wanted the .45 Auto. Another study was done, and the Bureau agreed to the 38 Special, but using 38/44 ammo with the 158 grain (mistakenly referred to as grams in the report) Keith wemi-wadcutter. Colt guaranteed the Police Positive for use with the 38/44 ammo. See the following, and note the velocity of the 38 Special, 1125 fps:

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...31eb5e6bc/1425545970532/colt+keith+bullet.pdf

Clyde Tolson took the side of the agents against Hugh Clegg, who only wanted the new Police Positives to remain in the offices, checked out as needed. Here is the Tolson letter, training memo, and the initial order from Colt so that enough Police Positives could be obtained from Colt to issue one to each agent. Note that the Bureau already had a large number in stock, and those that were in good or excellent condition were not replaced, but merely supplemented.

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...37b93ec7e138/1425564107097/33colttraining.pdf

Here is the inventory of revolvers and holsters, from which Mr. Tolson determined how many Police Positives to order:

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...425545826477/33trainingordersdistribution.pdf

Mr. Wack is a good friend, and I had the honor of consulting with him on the article concerning the myth that agents were forbidden the use of arms prior to the 1934 Act. That article is here:

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...8c12fe13175d880c0bd/1465559233746/weapons.pdf

Mr. Wack's site is a wonderful tribute to agents of the Bureau, and it is a great way to spend hours reading while enjoying your early morning coffee. I encourage all of you to go there and explore.

Also, I encourage all of you to read the book American Agent by Melvin Purvis. The account of the Little Bohemia raid in that book is so detailed you can almost feel yourself freezing on the running boards of the only cars that didn't break down as the agents traveled from the little airport through the cold night on their way to the Lodge for the Dillinger shootout.

The letters and correspondence on Mr. Wack's historical G-Man site show a side of J. Edgar Hoover that is neither acknowledged nor understood by the media, or his loud and vociferous critics.

Good show Larry Wack!

 

[Absalom]

......
I visited the FBI Bldg. in 1957, with my father, on vacation. They had a really nice demo of the Tommygun and revolvers....

Those were the days.... I did the tour of the Hoover building in fall 1980 and they still did the Tommy gun demo. A guy in classy slacks and an impeccably ironed white shirt and tie fired off a number of bursts into a silhouette target. We had to watch from behind glass, though. Probably bullet-proof

 

[charles_the_hammer]

I think I read somewhere that the last revolver issued by the FBI was the Model 13 in .357, but that they mostly used .38 special +P 158 grain lead semi-wad cutters?

 

[blasterp7]

Here is a convenient overview:

American Rifleman | A History of FBI Handguns

That grainy picture kind of looks like a 27 3.5". But then again it could be a 19 2.5"....