Federal Ammo ques..

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Hunter991

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I am seeing 3 different kinds of Federal defense ammo lately.. maybe someone can tell me the difference..

What is the difference between HST and Hydro shok? Also saw a blue box of SD ammo which just said personal defense HP..
 
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Hydra-Shok was designed by Tom Burczynski in the 80's and later sold to Federal. The bullet design has a post in the dead-center of the HP cavity to help divert material away from the dead-center and into the wall of the HP cavity to help expansion.

HST is a relatively new JHP design which looks more like a conventional JHP design. HST's have very long skivvie cuts in the exterior of the copper jacket from the meplat (tip of bullet) to just a little above the case mouth.

The blue box "Personal Defense" ammo is Federal's basic "cup and core" JHP design. Think of it as a "generic" design, whereas the Hydra-Shok and HST is considered more of a "premium" bullet design (with the HST being the most current and modern design of them all).
 
Expect to pay $1 a shot or more for Premium Defense Ammo... from .380 to .45 ACP.

.....
Customer: How much are those killer bullets for a .380?
Me: You mean Hollow Points?
Customer: Yes, them.
Me: Typically a dollar a shot.
Customer: I'll take six.
Me: Boxes ? :confused:
Customer: No, Bullets.
.......

That's why you see these in 20 and 25 round boxes. Sticker Shock!

Best value is the 25-round Hornady Critical Defense in 9MM and .380. (20-rounds for .45 ACP).
 
Hydra-Shoks are outdated, in spite of what some might say. It's been tested and it's consistently had the HP cavity clog in testing and fail to expand. Google it.

HST is a much better design and tests well. Google it too.

Blue Box is the least effective of the three.
 
S&W45Colt said:
Hydra-Shoks are outdated, in spite of what some might say. It's been tested and it's consistently had the HP cavity clog in testing and fail to expand. Google it.

HST is a much better design and tests well. Google it too.
Click to expand...

I don't think there is any bullet style that hasn't been "proven" to fail/not expand/not penetrate or any other "desirable" characteristic.

Perhaps the only style with any kind of consistant results is round nose ball.

I believe entirely too much time and energy is wasted by end users worrying about a literal "magic bullet" (and paying for it!).

Shoot me with one or two hundred grains of lead, with or without a hole in it's nose or a copper jacket, at somewhere between 500 and 1500 FPS and I guarantee that I'll sit up and take notice.

Phrase never heard:
"Don't worry about that bullet wound in the chest. It was only a hydrashock"


Sgt Lumpy
 
SgtLumpy said:
I don't think there is any bullet style that hasn't been "proven" to fail/not expand/not penetrate or any other "desirable" characteristic.

Perhaps the only style with any kind of consistant results is round nose ball.

I believe entirely too much time and energy is wasted by end users worrying about a literal "magic bullet" (and paying for it!).

Shoot me with one or two hundred grains of lead, with or without a hole in it's nose or a copper jacket, at somewhere between 500 and 1500 FPS and I guarantee that I'll sit up and take notice.

Phrase never heard:
"Don't worry about that bullet wound in the chest. It was only a hydrashock"


Sgt Lumpy
Click to expand...

There are bullets that fail to expand more often than others, Hydra Shok is one of those. The argument premium HP's don't consistently expand any better than any other was a valid opinion at one point in time, but today's technology has changed that. Testing, not opinion has proved that. As I said, Google it.

I never said any bullet wouldn't have an effect, however, some bullets are better than others.

I am not looking for a magic bullet, just the best one I can carry. When I combine that with the several thousand rounds I shoot each year per caliber I carry, it makes me my most effective, which is the point.

When was the last time your duty round was FMJ, ball etc? LE believes there is a difference in ammo style and brand/style quality. Otherwise, all LE would be carrying cheap RNL rounds.

Here's Doc Roberts recommendations, if you feel you are better qualified to comment on it than him, that's your call. You'll note there are no Hydra-Shoks on it.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
 
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S&W45Colt said:
...Google it.
Click to expand...

Again, I can pretty much guarantee that "googling it" will produce eleventy-seven thousand opinions, supported by "facts" that any round you can name will or won't stop a human.

Humans have died from a .22 to the bicep. Humans have lived after having a 12 ga bisect their skull vault. There's proof of both.

Hydra-shocks and any other kind of hollow points expand or don't expand when fired into gel, denim, pine wood, cadavers, watermelons, drums of water.

What we don't have, can't have, will never have, is reliable and repeatable data on how THIS cartridge didn't kill the guy but THAT cartridge would have.

And again, entirely too much energy is wasted on looking for a magic bullet.


Sgt Lumpy
 
SgtLumpy said:
Again, I can pretty much guarantee that "googling it" will produce eleventy-seven thousand opinions, supported by "facts" that any round you can name will or won't stop a human.

Humans have died from a .22 to the bicep. Humans have lived after having a 12 ga bisect their skull vault. There's proof of both.

Hydra-shocks and any other kind of hollow points expand or don't expand when fired into gel, denim, pine wood, cadavers, watermelons, drums of water.

What we don't have, can't have, will never have, is reliable and repeatable data on how THIS cartridge didn't kill the guy but THAT cartridge would have.

And again, entirely too much energy is wasted on looking for a magic bullet.


Sgt Lumpy
Click to expand...

No one said there was a magic bullet. You have a nice night.
 
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Well while we are at it anyone up for the factory ammo vs reload/re-manufactured ammo discussion....
 
Hunter991,
I and my Dept. has had really good luck (shootings) with the HST rounds, and we do all the ballistic tests before allowing any round to be used. The Self-Defense Ammo section (page 80 Jan. 2014) in the American Rifleman lists some basic ammo information and shows some results of the FBI protocol tests using HST. I'm not sure you read the article, but if not, take a gander at your convenience.......
 
S&W45Colt said:
Hydra-Shoks are outdated, in spite of what some might say. It's been tested and it's consistently had the HP cavity clog in testing and fail to expand. Google it.

HST is a much better design and tests well. Google it too.

Blue Box is the least effective of the three.
Click to expand...
Nothing personal and not aimed at S&W45Colt, but I hear similar all over the gun world. If it's not new and shiny (and more expensive) it's old and crappy. Anything that's old is "outdated" but if that's true how can we explain the FBI Load? Not everything that's old is outdated and not everything that's new and shiny is better. (IMHO of course) The Hydra-Shok bullet is one of the few things I like from Federal. (and the Nyclad bullet lol)
 
Maybe we should concentrate more on bullet placement than bullet type. If you don't hit in a vital area, it really doesn't matter if your bullet expands or not. A hit with a Terminator 2013, Explosive round in the calf is nowhere near as effective as a solid hit in the boiler room with a FMJ. All this energy could be better used in practicing with WHATEVER YOU prefer to use.
 
Don 73 said:
Maybe we should concentrate more on bullet placement than bullet type. If you don't hit in a vital area, it really doesn't matter if your bullet expands or not. A hit with a Terminator 2013, Explosive round in the calf is nowhere near as effective as a solid hit in the boiler room with a FMJ. All this energy could be better used in practicing with WHATEVER YOU prefer to use.
Click to expand...
I completely agree. The best ammo in the world will do you no good unless you hit what you aim at!
 
Blue box: good general ammo.

Hydro...... some call it the Hydro Suck and some like it.
I have never tried them.

The HST is the cream of the crop but you have to put a lot of "Green" on the table to be able to pick up a box.

They will all do the job if placed right.
 
Articile in the new American Rifleman Jan. 2014 pg 80, on the 'new' Federal HST and Guard Dog.

The lastest and greatest, new and improved, premium, dollar plus per round to hit the market. :rolleyes:
 
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