FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45

[hdwhit]

RGVShooter wrote:
In order for a 9mm to duplicate a 230gr 45acp moving at 830fps you're gonna have to push a 147gr bullet at 1295fps.

All you're doing there is computing equal kinetic energies for the bullets and that has little, if anything, to do with the bullet's "performance", much less it's "effectiveness" which is what the OP said he was trying to test before subtly changing his criteria in post #179.

 

[rsrocket1]

Simple answer

How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45

Shoot 'em twice.

After all, isn't that the whole argument behind a low recoil, high capacity 9 vs a big heavy 45?

Twice as many smaller holes in the right places will help negate the "non-lethal force" of the itty bitty 9.

 

[TomkinsSP]

I think if you want 45 ACP performance, then shoot 45 ACP.

Or a .44 S&W Special...

 

[RGVshooter]

All you're doing there is computing equal kinetic energies for the bullets and that has little, if anything, to do with the bullet's "performance", much less it's "effectiveness" which is what the OP said he was trying to test before subtly changing his criteria in post #179.

yeah I know it was a lame attempt, i tried lol... I still think it would be easier to just go out & buy a .45acp pistol.

 

[rwsmith]

hmmmmmm

sorry for putting 2 cents in the kitty.

I have/own/use/reload for/shoot short bbl'd 9mm's.

I also load/own/shoot short bbl'd 357's, 38spl's & 44spl's. Along with the ability to cast my own hp bullets, swage my own hp bullets & make hp's in loaded bullets.

Some people play checkers, some people play chess

Why don't you work on how to make a loaded bullet a hp bullet then an effective hp bullet.

Right now you're doing 1 heck of a job of spitting into the wind. And from where I'm sitting my 3 year old grand daughter makes you look like a 1 legged man in a *** kicking contest

I make lots of bullets that shoot. This presents new problems.

I don't cast bullets myself. But I do load four pistol caliers and 3 rifles, including making my own cases for a Japanese Arisaka. I don't see where that makes a difference in this problem.

Instead of being objective, rather than just ignoring my posts, people say a three year old has more where with all than I do and that that I what I read is crummy. I like it when people tell me why they think my idea won't work. Their critiques have solved some problems for me. But I don't like just being bad mouthed because I'm enthusiastic. AND this is a learning experience for me. I've loaded 9mm of every weight of jacketed and three weights of cast in several configurations and they all work, Some gave difficulty, but I'm learning to do that better, too. Again it's my time and energy and I'll spit in the wind if I want to.

Today, I plan to go to the range and clock these rounds. Maybe I'll learn something.

 

[rwsmith]

I did mention

yeah I know it was a lame attempt, i tried lol... I still think it would be easier to just go out & buy a .45acp pistol.

...that a .45 doesn't carry as many rounds as a 9mm. I've shot .45s, they are great. 9mms have more rounds than revolvers, too. I'm not expecting this to catch on and be the round that everybody wants and needs at the exclusion of all else. I just want to see how it works.
Think of all the time people have spent working on 'wildcat' rounds. Most of the time they are no better or have any appreciable improvement over the original. Out of all that there is the Ackley and the Herret, which are now commercialized popular rounds.

 

[Regaj]

Nice, old thread. (I like it when folks sniff around in the corners of canonical law... some things in the shooting world are immutable and unchanging - but oftentimes those steadfast pillars are different than what we think they are).

Best wishes with the cardiac therapy, RW!

Regarding number of rounds (the impetus behind the whole thing), I'll only offer that how many we have of something affects us. It may very well influence how we respond in a gunfight.

The fellow with the 17-shot wonder-nine and another 16-round mag on his belt is likely to shoot differently than the the fellow with 8 shots of .45 ACP, or the fellow with the 5-shot J-frame in his pocket.

Getting lots of lead downrange in a hurry is the doctrine currently in vogue. But it's not the only doctrine.

 

[SA1911]

It is amusing to read attempts of 9MM aficionados to equate their beloved round with The King. The 9MM will never, ever come close to The King's efficacy. The 9MM dudes have to conceal a crucial factor that's partially revealed by rwsmith: bullet weight. The King's 230 grain bullet generates momentum that the 9MM will never be able to replicate.

cadmike is all over the right answer: the only way to achieve .45 ACP performance is to shoot a .45 ACP.

There's a reason Big 5 hunters use huge bullets at pedestrian velocities. You won't see a Big 5 hunter using a 180 grain .300 Wby Mag to hunt elephants.

The 1911 is the only battle semi handgun that was designed to be an offensive battle handgun. It's deserved reputation is unrivaled by any other military handgun.

Militaries of most countries issued small caliber handguns to their officers for in-field execution of their own soldiers for sundry transgressions. The 9MM does perform well when it's used to put a bullet in the back of a derelict soldier's skull. GB & USA issued big cartridge handguns to their soldiers as offensive weapons.

The 9MM never has nor will it ever come close to achieving The King's efficacy.

If you want .45 ACP performance, buy a .45 ACP. That's the only way to get .45 ACP performance. If you don't need .45 ACP performance, buy a 9MM.

 

[gen3guy]

Energy is a function of mass and a change in velocity. In order to get a 147 Gr. 9mm "act like a .45", if expansion is the goal, one would have to increase the velocity accordingly. The expansion of a particular projectile will hasten the loss of velocity, thus imparting more energy on the target. The diameter of the final result doesn't really have that much to do with it. Let's not forget that the gold standard of stopping power is the diminutive 125 Gr. .357 bullet at .357 Magnum velocity.

ShootersCalculator.com | Bullet Energy Calculator

 

[Pisgah]

How do you make the 9mm equal the .45? Increase the bullet diameter by 27% and double the bullet weight...

 

[richardw]

I am a far cry from a knowledgeable ballistics student, but I do remember my high school physics course ( got an A). We all know that weight X velocity yields energy. So while it should be simple math to determine the specifics of trying to achieve equality between the 45 ACP and the 9 mm Luger there are variables that make it difficult if trying to equate HP performance. Those variables would be in the width of expanded bullets. The greater the expanded width the more quickly the bullet loses energy because the width determines velocity reducing resistance. So HP expansion would have an affect on any comparison, and that expansion would vary from brand to brand. And if you compare 45 and 9 HP the 45 will win on expansion diameter because it if a larger diameter to start with so it would expand to a greater width than the 9mm.

So ball ammo would be a better test bullet to make repeatable comparisons. Since making the 9mm ball round weighs more is not really practical since a 9mm diameter can not be made bigger than 9mm. So a ball ammo 45 bullet will always punch a bigger hole than a 9mm. You could increase the velocity of the 9mm but not the diameter. Even if you made the 9mm bullet longer to increase its weight it would not change its diameter.

To summarize, the fact is that the diameter of a bullet hole is very dependent upon the diameter of the bullet when expansion is not a factor.

We now know that non expanding monolithic ammo like the Underwood and Lehigh Extreme Defender or Defense. With those rounds the hydrostatic force from the bullet makes a hole bigger than the bullet diameter. That could make 9mm monosyatic equal a 45 ball. However, proper comparison would be to use monolithic ammo in both calibers, and then the 45 would outperform the 9mm.

There is a simple reason for that. The laws of physics do not change no matter how much you try to bend them. So I follow the rule of common sense. I can handle a 9mm better than a 45 ACP. To get bet penetration and HO comparable wound channel I use Underwood Extreme Defense, and as a bonus I get better barrier penetration.

 

[SA1911]

Energy is a function of mass and a change in velocity. In order to get a 147 Gr. 9mm "act like a .45", if expansion is the goal, one would have to increase the velocity accordingly. The expansion of a particular projectile will hasten the loss of velocity, thus imparting more energy on the target. The diameter of the final result doesn't really have that much to do with it. Let's not forget that the gold standard of stopping power is the diminutive 125 Gr. .357 bullet at .357 Magnum velocity.

ShootersCalculator.com | Bullet Energy Calculator

Tell me about what you know of the "stopping power" of the 125 grain .357 Mag bullet.

Let me help you out: stopping power is the product of pulp fiction sold to those who had to believe nonsense. There is no such thing as a tactical handgun "manstopper". It's a fairy tale. At it's best, the .357 Mag is mediocre as a tactical handgun cartridge. And it ain't even mediocre when it's firing 125 grain bullets. Were I to use a .357 Mag for bipedal self-defense, it'd be loaded with the FBI Load: .38 Special 158 grain LSWC +P or LSWCHP +P.

 

[bigggbbruce]

How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45

Simple.. Take a 115gr 9mm and increase the diameter to .451 and double the weight.

 

[steelslaver]

Anyone who thinks a 9mm can compare to a 45 is completely ignoring physics.
You can make a 9mm either fast and lighter or slower and heavier.
You can make a 45 lighter and faster or slower and heavier.
You can make similar bullets for both calibers, from light to heavy constructed hollow points, soft points, monolithic copper, lead, serrated what ever.
You can +P both
What can be done to one can be done to the other.

A 45 will always be bigger and heavier. Yes, MxVsq. But, a 9mm, 147 gr at 1000fps=326. A 115gr at 1225fps=383. A 45+P, 230gr at 900=413, A 200gr @ 1000=444. A 165gr 45 @ 1250+572.

In every case the 45 wins out, heavier bullet, bigger bullet, Its light bullets can go as fast as a much lighter 9mm light bullet.

No way no how is a 9mm bullet ever going to match up to a 45 if you compare them fairly. You can pick the best 9mm and pit it against the worst 45 and come out in about a dead heat.

A 9mm handgun's advantages are in size, capacity and recoil.

Power is fine, accuracy is final. If you can sho0t a 45 as well as a 9, your better off unless you have a bunch of assailants or you waste your shots. I got it about suppression fire, but, a fatal wound is the ultimate suppression fire. The odds of being in an out and out everyone blaze away gun battle for the majority is close to zero and if you live so you might find yourself in one, I suggest your tactics include a handy assault rifle.

You want to shoot a high capacity 9, that's fine. Its not a bad plan. Do it be good with it. but don't try to make it a 45acp, cause it isn't one and is never going to be one.

Over time combat bullets have gone smallerr and smaller and faster and faster. But, the round count for KIA is now over 250,00 rounds.

Thats despite a round count of about 1.5 for the snipers firing those big slow bullets.

 

[bigggbbruce]

9mm like a 45ACP.. I'll go with 44 Magnum

I was out walking this morning and found the bathroom of a very large bear.

 

[ColbyBruce]

To the OP, if you still own that Sig P250 buy yourself a couple of 21 round mags for the P320 TacOps model and you should be GTG.

 

[fdw]

Anyone who thinks a 9mm can compare to a 45 is completely ignoring physics.
You can make a 9mm either fast and lighter or slower and heavier.
You can make a 45 lighter and faster or slower and heavier.
You can make similar bullets for both calibers, from light to heavy constructed hollow points, soft points, monolithic copper, lead, serrated what ever.
You can +P both
What can be done to one can be done to the other.

A 45 will always be bigger and heavier. Yes, MxVsq. But, a 9mm, 147 gr at 1000fps=326. A 115gr at 1225fps=383. A 45+P, 230gr at 900=413, A 200gr @ 1000=444. A 165gr 45 @ 1250+572.

In every case the 45 wins out, heavier bullet, bigger bullet, Its light bullets can go as fast as a much lighter 9mm light bullet.

No way no how is a 9mm bullet ever going to match up to a 45 if you compare them fairly. You can pick the best 9mm and pit it against the worst 45 and come out in about a dead heat.

A 9mm handgun's advantages are in size, capacity and recoil.

Power is fine, accuracy is final. If you can sho0t a 45 as well as a 9, your better off unless you have a bunch of assailants or you waste your shots. I got it about suppression fire, but, a fatal wound is the ultimate suppression fire. The odds of being in an out and out everyone blaze away gun battle for the majority is close to zero and if you live so you might find yourself in one, I suggest your tactics include a handy assault rifle.

You want to shoot a high capacity 9, that's fine. Its not a bad plan. Do it be good with it. but don't try to make it a 45acp, cause it isn't one and is never going to be one.

Over time combat bullets have gone smallerr and smaller and faster and faster. But, the round count for KIA is now over 250,00 rounds.

Thats despite a round count of about 1.5 for the snipers firing those big slow bullets.

I like and shoot them both well but carry a 380 most of the time. Why? Because it conceals easier, is more comfortable and I shoot it well too. In other words, I don't get hung up on caliber.

 

[rwsmith]

Range report

Well I should have taken more rounds, I easily got the 158 grains to 950 fps That's good enough but I think I have room for a little more.

Next time I will also take bucket full of wet pulp and check penetration. I've tried to make a custom bullet seater for these bullets and didn't have much luck, but I think I'll try again because it may help keep the bullet shoulder from expanding. I think I've got things going now and hope to be back with some data.

And I'm not talking rounds for snipers, but up close defense. Many people want 158 gr bullets in their .38s and .357s. Good grief, I don't see why people have to be so contrary. Constructive criticism positive or negative is more than welcome but I believe that if anything's been beat to death here, it's plain naysaying.

PS: I MIGHT be able to adjust the M die. That would be easier than anything.

 

[gen3guy]

Tell me about what you know of the "stopping power" of the 125 grain .357 Mag bullet.

Let me help you out: stopping power is the product of pulp fiction sold to those who had to believe nonsense. There is no such thing as a tactical handgun "manstopper". It's a fairy tale. At it's best, the .357 Mag is mediocre as a tactical handgun cartridge. And it ain't even mediocre when it's firing 125 grain bullets. Were I to use a .357 Mag for bipedal self-defense, it'd be loaded with the FBI Load: .38 Special 158 grain LSWC +P or LSWCHP +P.

ok. I took the brow beating like a man.

 

[Chubbo]

This may be more ballistics/performance than actual reloading, but I've been doing some thinking.

A few .45 ACP facts:

Even .45s that don't expand are effective because of their size.

A .45 bullet weighing 230 grains is effective at 830 ft/sec.

Therefore:

The heaviest 9mm bullet that can be fired at 830 fps or higher, and was designed to expand at this velocity to about .45 in. dia. would most closely resemble performance in a .45 with a non expanding bullet. I believe that a 165 gr. bullet or maybe slightly heavier would be able to do this.


I think that this would also apply to .40 S&W in a 180 grain or slightly heavier, again, if it were designed to expand at mid-800 fps velocity.

In conclusion I think that a bullet similar to a Speer 135 grain short barrel bullet similar to that in the .38 special version but weighing 165 gr for 9mm or 180 gr. for .40 S&W would most closely emulate the .45 ACPs effectiveness.

I've been loading 125 gr. 9mm bullet in the belief that that is a 'good compromise' in velocity and weight. After thinking this up, I'm wondering if a heavy bullet designed to expand at low velocity could be a more effective round, which would also apply to the .40 S&W.

IF this is true, it gives a lie (in the PRACTICAL world) to the "Less mass, high velocity" theory in favor of the "High mass, less velocity with a bullet designed for the job" theory.

At present, a commercially available bullet that would lean in this direction would be something like a 158 grain Speer Gold Dot, which is short of what I'm looking for, along with being designed for about 950 ft/sec in order to expand. If somebody cares to test this, it would at least tell us that this is the right direction. I also think that a heavy cast HPSWC would be a good test. I'm going to look around on the net to see what testing has been done.

Arguments? Questions? Comments? Conjecture? Am I full of mud????

UPDATE: I just watched a Youtube video of gelatin tests of a 9mm 147 gr Speer GD. 14" of penetration with expansion of about .59" (Wow). This idea just may pan out.

In answer to your question, "You can't"