First Victory ... A Lend-Lease 5" .38 S&W

[MGWLLW]

Just bought my first Victory revolver (original & all-matching, including the grips) and I have a couple questions. I know that there is a ton of knowledge & experience on this forum, so here we go

1. This Victory does not have an import mark, so can I assume that this is a bringback OR was it just imported prior to 1968?

2. I thought that I read somewhere that most of these lend-lease guns were shipped from the S&W factory to a location(s) on the East Coast, where they were then sent overseas. Would it be worth my time (and money) to get a letter or was the date/destination the same for most of these revolvers?

3. Along the same lines as #2, does anyone have a guess as to a date & shipping destination for my serial (V572455)?

4. When I buy a holster & lanyard for it, I'm assuming that it should definitely be British; not Canadian, Australian, or New Zealand? Does each Commonwealth country have their own markings?

Sorry for all of the questions right out of the gate, but I'm looking forward to learning more about the Victory's and other USGI sidearms of WWI/WWII. Thanks!

Mike

 

[MGWLLW]

More pictures .....

 

[MGWLLW]

5 more pictures .....

 

[MGWLLW]

Final 2 pictures .....

 

[Waidmann]

1. Likely prior to 1968
2. British Purchasing Commission NYC
3. After April 1942, but someone will have a better answer.
4. While each Commonwealth country had particular markings they were not always applied. Markings, civil, military and police tell a story but the absence of any............... early "pre-Victory" British Service Revolvers can be lettered to countries. I'll let someone else speak to Victory Models. I know of three BSRs that bear only factory markings.

Hopefully this is of some use till a more learned fellow happens along. I'll be watching with you.



W.

 

[bshepherd]

Mine is a pre-victory 813xxx. It has no markings other than the factory markings, a P on the butt and and the importers mark. I can't really tell if other markings have been scrubbed, but it does not look to have ever had the host of proof marks and broad arrows that often accompany these revolvers.

 

[DCWilson]

Welcome to the forum. There is something about the Victory and pre-Victory models that commands respect, and I'm glad you found a nice one to start your collection. Yes, start. You may find you will own a few more before you feel you have enough.

I have V573116, not far from yours; mine shipped in April 1944. It too has no acceptance and British proof marks, but it does have the Austrian police stamp. It is one of the lend/lease BSRs that was made available to local police in the American sector of postwar Austria.

 

[pablop]

S&W Victory model or not?

I have V195896, with 5" barrel, checkered wooden grips and blued finish.
Something like .767" and 5 TIONS also stamped on barrel.
Can anyone tell me more about it's manufacturing date and history?

.38 S&W cartridges are becoming obsolete.
Can 9x19mm/9mm Luger/-Parabellum cartridges be used? Where can I find a moon clip for it?

 

[Goony]

I have V195896, with 5" barrel, checkered wooden grips and blued finish.
Something like .767" and 5 TIONS also stamped on barrel.
Can anyone tell me more about it's manufacturing date and history?

.38 S&W cartridges are becoming obsolete.
Can 9x19mm/9mm Luger/-Parabellum cartridges be used? Where can I find a moon clip for it?

That barrel stamping "5 TONS" would be part of the commercial proofing done at the time the revolver was withdrawn from military service, although it's more probable that the stamping is incomplete and should read "3.5 TONS" (7K psi).

Your gun most likely shipped in early 1943. The stocks have either been checkered or (more likely) are not original. I seem to recall that some of the British firms engaged in exporting these favored stocks of this style. The original finish would have been a dull phosphate, so the bluing is also something done at a later time. It also appears to have received a light polish before being blued (looks rather well done, though).

I'd check to see if a .38 Special round will chamber, and if the rear of the cylinder face still bears a matching serial number. Both those being the case would identify the gun as one of the makeshift conversions that were foisted off on an unsuspecting public up into the 1960's. Even if they fit, I'd caution against actually shooting .38 Special in the gun, as the cases will be prone to splitting. If the cylinder is an actual .38 Special replacement, however, that shouldn't be a concern.

I've not heard of anyone trying to shoot 9mm rounds via a moon clip out of one of these. I'll let someone else comment on the feasibility of that. I suspect that splitting cases would still be a bugaboo, though, not to mention pressures in excess of what the revolver was designed to handle.

 

[pablop]

Revolver was definately originally chambered for .38 S&W - does not chamber .38 Special cartridges and still have original matching serial number on rear of cylinder.
Blued finish on brushed metal and checkered wooden grips are original, as is the "new" leather holster with "SAP" (South African Police) stamped on the inside. It was "police issue", but never used.
Any one able to supply me with the manufacturing date?

 

[ordnanceguy]

1. This Victory does not have an import mark, so can I assume that this is a bringback OR was it just imported prior to 1968?

2. I thought that I read somewhere that most of these lend-lease guns were shipped from the S&W factory to a location(s) on the East Coast, where they were then sent overseas. Would it be worth my time (and money) to get a letter or was the date/destination the same for most of these revolvers?

3. Along the same lines as #2, does anyone have a guess as to a date & shipping destination for my serial (V572455)?

4. When I buy a holster & lanyard for it, I'm assuming that it should definitely be British; not Canadian, Australian, or New Zealand? Does each Commonwealth country have their own markings?

Mike

Hi Mike:

Welcome to the Forum. I'l try to help with your questions. Your many excellent photos and complete serial number allow me to be able to give you my best estimates. (I can't really work with partial numbers or XXXs.)

1. Your revolver bears post-war British commercial proof markings. That immediately tells us that it was not a veteran's "bring-back" item. Many thousands of these guns were imported back to the USA in the 1950s up to 1968 and, thus, do not bear the import markings required from 1968 on. Your gun came back home before 1968.

2. Your revolver was a Lend Lease item. The S&W factory letter on your gun will almost certainly say that it was shipped to the Hartford Ordnance Depot, which was the destination for most of the S&W Lend Lease guns. From the Victory Model Database (which my pal LWCmdr45 and I administer) I can estimate that your revolver likely shipped in the May, 1944 time frame.

Only you can determine if a factory letter is worth your time and money. In my opinion, it would be. I encourage everyone to get letters on their guns. They provide important documentation for collectors at a relatively modest cost. If you do get a letter please post back here with the results.

3. See above info on the ship date and destination.

4. Yes, the best guess would be to go with British Pattern '37 equipment as your revolver does not bear the markings for any other Commonwealth country.

I hope this information is helpful to you.

 

[Goony]

Revolver was definately originally chambered for .38 S&W - does not chamber .38 Special cartridges and still have original matching serial number on rear of cylinder.
Blued finish on brushed metal and checkered wooden grips are original, as is the "new" leather holster with "SAP" (South African Police) stamped on the inside. It was "police issue", but never used.
Any one able to supply me with the manufacturing date?

The blued finish is not original. As I indicated before, all the Victory type being turned out at this time were given a dull phosphate coating. If the stocks are original (that is, numbered to the gun), the checkering is not. Also, just to be clear, the accompanying holster does not necessarily identify the revolver's previous service.

Smith & Wesson has not maintained records of a gun's "manufacturing date" per se, only when it was shipped from the factory. I'm still comfortable with my estimate of early 1943 for the time frame in which yours went out.

 

[Dave_n]

The 3.5 tons and then the square with an " mark is the nominal proof test of 3.5 tons per square inch. A 0.38 Special would be 4 tons instead. The BNP or British Nitro Proof on each cylinder is also indicative of only use in the UK. Dave_n

 

[Waidmann]

The crowned BNP is Birmingham Nitro Proof, a marking that along with the others mentioned date from 1954. The fully checkered grips were common to refurbished or converted revolvers in England. Civil proofs were required when the guns entered commerce in the UK. British civil authorities did not accept any military proofs. Birmngham typically applied proofs on the left side, London on the right.

 

[MGWLLW]

Hi Mike:

Welcome to the Forum. I'l try to help with your questions. Your many excellent photos and complete serial number allow me to be able to give you my best estimates. (I can't really work with partial numbers or XXXs.)

1. Your revolver bears post-war British commercial proof markings. That immediately tells us that it was not a veteran's "bring-back" item. Many thousands of these guns were imported back to the USA in the 1950s up to 1968 and, thus, do not bear the import markings required from 1968 on. Your gun came back home before 1968.

2. Your revolver was a Lend Lease item. The S&W factory letter on your gun will almost certainly say that it was shipped to the Hartford Ordnance Depot, which was the destination for most of the S&W Lend Lease guns. From the Victory Model Database (which my pal LWCmdr45 and I administer) I can estimate that your revolver likely shipped in the May, 1944 time frame.

Only you can determine if a factory letter is worth your time and money. In my opinion, it would be. I encourage everyone to get letters on their guns. They provide important documentation for collectors at a relatively modest cost. If you do get a letter please post back here with the results.

3. See above info on the ship date and destination.

4. Yes, the best guess would be to go with British Pattern '37 equipment as your revolver does not bear the markings for any other Commonwealth country.

I hope this information is helpful to you.

Charlie -

That's exactly the kind of information that I was looking for! Yes, I'll order a letter in the near future and contact you with the results. Thanks again for the input!

P.S. I'm partial to leather, so I ordered a British Pattern '39 repro holster. If it doesn't work for me, I'll switch gears and put it in a P-37 holster

Mike

 

[ordnanceguy]

Glad to be of some help, Mike. Enjoy that nice Victory.

 

[PJGP]

Don't stand near me if you try and shoot 9 mm Para in a 38 revolver! Have you any idea of the difference in pressure?

Peter

 

[popgun]

38 S&W is still avalible but can be hard to find do a search online. Try ammobank.com

 

[pablop]

Don't stand near me if you try and shoot 9 mm Para in a 38 revolver! Have you any idea of the difference in pressure?

Peter

Yes, with an ammunition collection of 3000+ different small calibers, I think I know the difference in pressures........

 

[Ballarat]

The 38 S&W ctg or 38-200 is still shot quite alot in Australia in the military pistol disciplines. Mainly reloaded, the brass is quite plentiful also. Victory models, Webleys and Colt OP's mainly used, all of wartime vintage. The most common projectile being the standard 38 weight of 158g. Most shoot really well with projectiles sized 358.