Fixed sigthed revolvers that don't shoot to point of aim

[My Toy]

Just purchased a model 64-3; its the only fixed sighted revolver I own. I understand that the gun was pretty much intended to be used with 158 gr bullets. I was using several 158 gr loads which all shoot to point of aim at 25 yards as far as elevation.
The problem is windage-- all of the loads shoot several inches to the left. Is there any way to correct this or do you just use Kentucky windage.

 

[Muley Gil]

The factory reps that would go to the matches would adjust the POI (point of impact) with a bar of babbit. That's right; they hit the barrel with a lead bar.

 

[tennexplorer]

The factory reps that would go to the matches would adjust the POI (point of impact) with a bar of babbit. That's right; they hit the barrel with a lead bar.

Which side?

 

[Dot_mdb]

In my experience, the sights on S&W revolvers are usually regulated pretty well. 2" to one side or another on a fixed sight self defense gun is really not too bad. Which side of someone's heart do you have to hit to kill them? At normal defense distances you probably won't even use the sights.

I have a Speed-six that is off a little more than your gun but I still consider it a good weapon for the purpose that it was built for.

Bill

 

[Muley Gil]

"Which side?"

To change the POI to the left, strike the left side. To change the POI to the right, strike the right side.

 

[David Sinko]

I have yet to own a fixed sight revolver that does not shoot to the sights. If it ever does happen and I know it's the gun and not me, I'd probably have the front sight ground off and a new one dovetailed in place. Then I'd have a windage adjustable front sight.

Dave Sinko

 

[Harrison]

Just a possibility, but it might be your grip. With adjustable sights you can adjust the rear sight for grip variations. I had to adjust my grip position slightly, and be extra careful with trigger control when I went to fixed sight revolvers. Try a slight adjustment to your grip position.

 

[SW357Addict]

I would try some other loads using different grain bullets. Try 125, 130, etc. grain loads. It can have a very large difference when it comes to windage. Also, if this is for SD, see where the gun prints at 10 and 15 yards as those distances (and less) are more typical of SD engagements.

 

[DeadAye]

Just a possibility, but it might be your grip.

X2 -
Are you shooting off of a rest? If not, try that. Be sure the gun isn't rotated a bit. It could also be that the barrel has turned a little. It doesn't take much.
You could also try using a different part of your finger on the trigger. Too much or too little finger will cause a pull off center.

 

[Stainz]

Sounds like it's a Ruger Vaquero...

Seriously, try watching - and having someone else also watch - as you shoot with your intended rounds - and a few empty chambers. You'll likely show your 'pull' readily when you hit an empty chamber. It is not to 'push' the trigger to the left as you pull it. Try using just the pad at the end of your trigger finger - and pulling straight back. We generally compensate for such a 'push' with an adjustable sighted gun - and then wonder why others can't hit squat with it!

Hear hoofs, think horses - not zebras. I just have a problem 'adjusting' a revolver with a lead pipe.

Stainz

 

[tom turner]

If it continues to shoot left, sandbagged from a bench . . . and for other good shooters . . . and after you've tested various loads . . . I'd recommend contacting S&W to return it to the factory to get the sights regulated.

But first, eliminate the human variables.

 

[thebreaze]

If you bench test and find the sights are true then you might try changing grips. I always shoot better with oversized wood grips. I can't shoot rubber grips worth a darn. I always remove those.

 

[Dan Cash]

Just a possibility, but it might be your grip. With adjustable sights you can adjust the rear sight for grip variations. I had to adjust my grip position slightly, and be extra careful with trigger control when I went to fixed sight revolvers. Try a slight adjustment to your grip position.

+100 on this. I gave my sister-in-law a fine nickel Colt Detective that shot 6" left at 10 yards for both of us. That one we returned to Colt to have the barrel turned which fixed the problem. Of a half dozen M&P/M10s and a 642 in my posession, a change of grip will change the point of impact by 3"inches or so at 10 yards.

 

[stevieboy]

As others have said your POI is subject to a lot of variables. A misaligned sight is always possible but one needs to rule out the others first.

I assume you're shooting double action. Finger placement on the trigger is very important when shooting da, far more so, in my opinion, than when firing single action. Your finger needs to be deep enough on the trigger so that you can obtain sufficient leverage to pull the trigger through the da cycle without pulling the gun in the direction of your shooting hand. Conversely, if your trigger finger is placed too deeply on the trigger, there's a risk of pushing the gun away from your shooting hand. If you're right handed and your gun shoots consistently to the left, it may just be that you have too much trigger finger on the trigger. If it shoots consistently to the right, too little finger may be the problem.

Another problem. We all see the front sights on our guns differently. What may appear to be perfectly aligned for one of us may look off to the next person. The owner of an adjustable sight gun can compensate for his/her proclivities by adjusting elevation and windage. That's not going to be possible with a fixed sight gun.

I have a fixed sight J-frame, a 36 made back in '73. With 158 grain bullets, for which the gun is regulated, I tend to shoot high unless I really think about it. It's definitely not the gun. Rather, I have a tendency to lift the top of the front sight above the plane made by the rear notch. Why? Because the tiny, razor-thin front sight on my gun is almost impossible for me to visualize unless I'm able to see the tip of it protruding above the rear notch. That puts my shots consistently high.

I've also noticed with all of my guns that I tend to shoot left or right when the lighting is uneven. Strong sunlight coming over my right shoulder causes me to shoot to the right, whereas sun coming over my left shoulder causes me to shoot left. The reason is that the sunlight tends to obliterate the side of the front sight that it is striking, causing me not to see it and causing me unconsciously to shift the gun in the direction of the sunlight in order to address the optical illusion of a front sight not centered. I've noticed this phenomenon to be present even on an indoor range when the lighting behind my gun is uneven.

Bottom line, research the problem carefully before assuming it's the gun.

 

[opr1945]

before I did anything drastic I would let several other people shoot it off a good rest to make sure it is really the gun and not the shooter.

 

[2hawk]

All good information, but...

Sometimes a f.s. gun doesn't shoot to point of aim. And I mean windage; elevation is pretty much a product of bullet weight and velocity.

I have 2 581's and 1 681. Shooting at 25 yds, one of the 581's always printed 3" left of poa. I tried to adjust my grip, tried different loads, but since I had two other near identical guns as controls, I finally was compelled to conclude that the gun just didn't shoot straight.

My local gunsmith was a S&W service center for many years before they did away with that program, and he attended training at the factory as part of the deal. He's familiar with the lead babbitt method, and as he told me, (paraphrasing), "yes, it can be done, but you don't want to watch."

After some discussion, I decided to send the gun back to Roosevelt Ave., complete with a couple of my targets and a careful explanation of the issue.

It came back with a clocked barrel and a test target.
(Apparently, the oldtimers with the lead bars have been retired )

I don't much like the fact that they just turned the barrel in to make the adjustment, but most people wouldn't notice it. A 581 is the epitome of utilitarian guns in my opinion, and now that I can pick it up, sight, shoot and see a hole appear pretty close to where I expect, I am satisfied. It is a shooter and a tool, and I am happy with it now.

I think all the advice and information given is worth looking into, but if you're like me, I *need* to be able to get a sight picture and shoot with a reasonable expectation of accuracy, and I am not going to be happy with having to stop and think about how much Kentucky windage I need at a certain range. Sometimes it is the gun, and not the shooter