forged steel?

[Last_Cowboy]

I am trying to find out if S&W revolvers are forged or investment cast steel? I have found evidence that the blued (carbon steel) revolvers are hammer forged? I would like to know if this is still the case; and more importantly, are the stainless steel revolvers hammer forged? Any information on the actual steel formula would be appreciated also, as well as the forging process. I have noticed that the stainless steel revolvers show some wear on cylinder locking notches, and that the carbon (blued) steel revolvers don't, indicating that the high-carbon blued cylinders are a harder steel.

 

[Cat91]

The Classics have forged steel frames. Hammers and triggers are MIM, tho. No clue about the cylinders.

 

[murphydog]

Welcome to the Forum. I believe both the blue and stainless steel revolver frames are forged. The small parts (lik the hammer, trigger) are MIM. The engineering types will be along to explain the details .

 

[nipster]

Smiths and Colts are forged.

Rugers are cast. (that's why they are heavier and "thicker")

"The others" - bubble gum and duct tape

 

[L Pete]

Nipster.....you are correct! Sir.

 

[Pisgah]

They are carved out of specially-hardened, dyed cheddar cheese.

 

[Titegroups]

Most modern blued firearms are made from chrome-moly steel. All steel has carbon in it, it's what makes steel steel and not iron. They use the term "Carbon" to differentiate from stainless steel. IIRC it's 4140 or something along those lines, 41 indicating chrome-moly and 40 meaning .40% carbon. Plain carbon steels use a "10" prefix like 1020 having .20% carbon content. IIRC 416 stainless is used for most firearms in stainless. Rugers is well known for their casting technology in areas outside of their firearms as well. Smith's are forged, I believe just about all cylinders are machined from round bar stock. I'm not a metallurgist but I'm sure someone here is and can give you more insight than I.

 

[Last_Cowboy]

I found this description by Don Williams on another blog: "The late Jim Clark Sr. preferred carbon over stainless for barrels, and IIRC, he thought they lasted longer and stayed accurate for a longer period of time. Most barrel makers have been using 416 stainless for the barrels for some time now, and I believe they are all using barstock. As Farscott mentioned, Wilson is an exception using a 17-4 forging. I would prefer a forging if possible for strength purposes, and even Schuemann states on his website that 416 isn't necessarily the best material, though I don't recall if he opines as to what is in his opinion. Think of barstock as wood rather than steel. If you split a tree trunk lengthwise, it splits pretty easily. Then think of that same tree and the forging is where a branch comes out of the trunk and think about trying to split through that - not so easy, as the grain runs in random directions, which adds strength. Perhaps a lame comparison, but you may be able to get the idea. Best, ". I tend to believe that the high-carbon blued steel revolvers (my main interest here is smith model 29's, and the 629's) are stronger. However, indications are that the stainless frames, cylinders, and barrels are not hammer forged. Other commentator's seem to think that the cylinders are cut from bar-stock? It would seem to me that cylinders - taking the brunt of the force should be hammer forged? Same for barrels. So far, I have not been able to find the definitive explanation of the steel formula's, or the forging process for current manufactured S&W model 29's and 629's. Knowing this would be of great interest to me - and I am sure others. I have both 29's, and 629's. But, I tend to think that the 29's are a stronger steel! While I have not had any metal fatigue failures in either model, I do see some cylinder wear on the latching notches of the 629's that I don't see on the 29's.

 

[desmodue]

1. Steel has less carbon content than most forms of iron (i.e. pig iron, grey iron, white iron, nodular iron etc. these all have approx 3% carbon) Removing most of the carbon, sulphur, maganese and various tramp elements from iron is what makes iron into steel. Once the steel bloom is created, a controlled amount of carbon and other alloying elements are added in precise amounts. Wrought iron, which is basically iron with a bunch of slag left in it to make it malleable, is the only common form of iron with a carbon content lower than most steel.

2. Stainless vs Carbon Steel: Stainless steel is not stronger than carbon steel, in fact it has several disadvantages. The chromium adds strength and corrosion resistance, the nickel must be added to prevent the high chrome content from making the alloy brittle. The end result is a compromise. Ask anyone who has machined stainless to describe the difference between SS and steel. They will tell you SS is tougher, not necessarily stronger than steel. Drilling or machining stainless will quickly make it clear that the alloy doesn't cut easily...not because it is stronger, but because it tends to smear or stretch in the process. This is why people tend to see wear at places like the cylinder notches on a revolver. The parts in a revolver that fit in the cylinder notches to turn it are steel, good old hardened steel. In many ways steel is superior, the only real advantage stainless has over steel is rust resistance.

3. Forged vs Cast - Simple forging is a cast piece that is hammered while still in the solidification phase. Drop forging is performed on cold or warm metal. Both are excellent ways to modify the grain structure. Drop forging is significantly stronger. Cast, for guns this usually means Investment Cast not cheap sand molded iron, is strong but not as strong as a forging. There is a reason all the wrenches (unless you buy cheap Harbor Freight junk) in your tool box are drop forged, not cast.

4. Bar Stock - It depends how the bar stock was made. You can be sure the bar stock that S&W, Ruger, etc. order for making cylinders is not cheap Hot Milled steel bar stock. The best bar stock steel for guns is made on very specialized equipment. These bar mills create enormous pressures while rolling the bloom into bars. Pass after pass, reducing the size of the bar and refining the grain structure. It is literally a continous forging process. It is just done without hammering. This why you don't have to worry about that .500 S&W cartridge blowing the cylinder apart when it fires.

 

[Last_Cowboy]

Desmodue, Good information about the various steel making processes. And, I gather from this, that you agree that the stainless steel model 629's are not as strong as the 29's. The other part of this that I am interested in, is exactly how Smith & Wesson is currently making their revolvers now. I know that the company has changed owners, and management, over the years; and they have changed their manufacturing processes to cut costs - like everyone else. I would be really interested in knowing exactly what steel making processes they are currently using, and how they have changed from the early models. For example, hammer forging is a time consuming, manual process that is expensive. Are they still doing this the way they used to, when everyone knows there are cheaper ways to do it? Another thing that keeps nagging me somehow. If you haven't noticed, most of our steel comes from China now. Yes, they have under-cut our steel producers, like everything else. And, I happen to think that Chinese steel is inferior - and I have examples of this. I "hope" that Smith & Wesson is still using American made steel? Does anyone know who they get their steel from?

 

[Titegroups]

Apologize for my mistake on the carbon content between iron and steel. Didn't mean to spread misinformation. You can look up the differences in strength on the web. You'll find dislike for stainless steels among people who work with it because it can be difficult in many ways.

 

[flyman40d]

Everyone is correct on S&W being forged. Drop Hammer Forged---and they used (may still) do outside work (job shop).
I rather like 4140 vs 400 series stainless. Using Neutral Salt as a Heat Treating medium you really get a good Heat Treat.
One of our companies was a Aerospace Certified HT and we processed TONS of 4130 & 4140.

 

[flyman40d]

We also owned a forging company. We did only Primary Aero Structure Aluminum Pressings. That is forgings made on a Hydraulic Press. We had 2, !500 tons and 2000 tons Pressing. We only forged Precision type forgings---that is, Net or Near Net shapes.
I was there 41 years.

 

[Last_Cowboy]

Not a problem; we are just trying to drill-down Smith & Wesson's current steel formula's, source, and process, and how they have changed over the years. Trying to find out if they are as good as they used to be - not much is these days. Interesting how difficult it is to get specific information on this!

 

[Last_Cowboy]

flyman40d

Hello, Can you tell me what year you left (I assume retired) from S&W? Also, can you tell me if they are still hammer forging their revolvers, and are they hammer forging their stainless steel revolvers? Are they using rolled steel for their cylinders and barrels? Have they changed their steel making processes and formula's over the years? And most importantly, is their source steel stock still poured in the U.S.? Your post implies that S&W actually owns their own steel foundry's. Is this still true? I have been an engineer my whole life, and have a compulsion to know these things.

 

[Bullet Bob]

You can go on youtube and tour the current factory, including the forging process as done today.

 

[flyman40d]

Last Cowboy:
Never worked at S&W and was never in their facility. I am sorry you formed the impression I had been with them.
I only worked in the Aerospace industry--they were commercial and as far as I know were never certified by an Primary Airframe manufacturer (airframer). This would be like Boeing or Grumman or like companies.