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[jejb]

I have a big supply of Clays, built up from many years of shooting 10-15K rounds of trap a year. Wanting to start using it up in my handgun loads, so pulled out my (older) Hodgon reloading book and loaded up 150 rounds of .40 with 180 Berry's JFP and the recommended 4.4 gr of Clays. Normally, I'd only load a small batch to try of a new load, but I guess I got carried away, since it was listed in a Hodgon manual, and not some recipe I picked up on the internet.

Went to the range with the first 50 and they are snappy! Accurate, but a hand ringing load. So when I got home, I went on the Hodgon sight and see the highest they now recommend is 3.5 grs of Clays, which makes for a very low velocity round. I may give it a try, as I like how soft Clays shoots in my 9's.

So I spent an hour yesterday with the bullet puller hammer and the 100 rounds of hot ammo. Next time, I'll confirm from more than one source before I try a new load.

 

[Daver7]

When I pick up a new jug of powder I go to the manufacturers web page and print the data for that powder in the calibers it might used in.That print out stays with the jug of powder. I do have several reloading manuals but the print out simply adds another reliable reference with data current to the date of manufacture.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Actually, in the Hodgdon site they list 3.4gr Clays as the max with that Berry's bullet and 3.5gr with an XTP bullet. We need to be very precise when loading for safety.

Which manual listed 4.4gr of Clays under a 180gr posted bullet in the 40 S&W? Wow that must have been hot!

 

[Nevada Ed]

I found out that with a 9mm 147gr Berry RN plated bullet, the
amount of Unique powder was reduced by .7 grs due to bullet shape
from the other brand of 147 that I just finished with.

This can also add to pressures in other calibers, so it pays to start low
and work up, when trying a new item or load.

 

[Joe4d]

clays really is only suitable for really reduced loads or loading long out to 1.180 or so. And even then it can get spikey. u dodged a bullet and lucky u didnt end up with a Kaboom.
As others said, I always reference at least 2 sources. One of them being the powder maker CURRENT data.
Powders change, people need to stop using old outdated manuals as well.

 

[jejb]

Actually, in the Hodgdon site they list 3.4gr Clays as the max with that Berry's bullet and 3.5gr with an XTP bullet. We need to be very precise when loading for safety.

Yep, thanks for the correction. I was going off memory on the new load. It is 3.4 max, which I loaded up 20 of and took to the range yesterday. They shot well.

Which manual listed 4.4gr of Clays under a 180gr posted bullet in the 40 S&W? Wow that must have been hot!

It's an official Hodgon reloading manual. They used to just have those sitting on the shelf in the stores with the powder. I have not seen one for a while, though.

 

[jejb]

clays really is only suitable for really reduced loads or loading long out to 1.180 or so. And even then it can get spikey. u dodged a bullet and lucky u didnt end up with a Kaboom.

Since it was a load published by Hodgon themselves, I'd sure hope I was never in the "kaboom" range!

Powders change, people need to stop using old outdated manuals as well.

I'm not sure I buy that the powder changes. That would be a pretty dangerous thing for a manf to do in our sue happy country. I'd guess they'd just create a new name for it and market it as a new powder.

EDIT: I just checked a load from that manual for 12ga loading. It was exactly the same recipe from the older book to the current data on the Hodgon website. So I really don't think the powders change.

 

[glowe]

I find it hard to think that Hodgdons ever produced a manual that states that high of a powder charge for a 40 S&W. Can you tell us the date of that publication. I just pulled out a 22 year old Hodgdons manual and it state 180g JHP with 3.5g Clays produces 847 fps in a 4" barrel with a chamber pressure of 34,300 psi.

Powder manufacturers just do not change the properties of a particular powder without renaming it something else. They then test often to make sure the powder properties have not changed from original specs. The prime example is Unique powder that has been stored for over one-hundred years, and is still tested along with current manufacture to make sure there are no changes in properties.

4.4 grains is 20% over recommended load and that could result in at least a 40,000 psi load, but I assume that a stout pistol like a S&W 40 would handle the pressure. What did your primers and brass look like after shot?

 

[Steve_53]

Clays itself has indeed changed. Previously, Hodgdon was importing it from Australia, a while back (a couple of years, IIRC) production was changed to Canada (take a look at the label on the container), the Canadian produced powder IS different from what came from Australia - virtually all of Hodgdon's data for loads with Clays were reduced when they changed the sourcing of the powder.

 

[jejb]

I find it hard to think that Hodgdons ever produced a manual that states that high of a powder charge for a 40 S&W. Can you tell us the date of that publication. I just pulled out a 22 year old Hodgdons manual and it state 180g JHP with 3.5g Clays produces 847 fps in a 4" barrel with a chamber pressure of 34,300 psi.

Powder manufacturers just do not change the properties of a particular powder without renaming it something else. They then test often to make sure the powder properties have not changed from original specs. The prime example is Unique powder that has been stored for over one-hundred years, and is still tested along with current manufacture to make sure there are no changes in properties.

4.4 grains is 20% over recommended load and that could result in at least a 40,000 psi load, but I assume that a stout pistol like a S&W 40 would handle the pressure. What did your primers and brass look like after shot?

I crossed it out, but you can still see it says 4.4:

1993 manual.

 

[jejb]

Clays itself has indeed changed. Previously, Hodgdon was importing it from Australia, a while back (a couple of years, IIRC) production was changed to Canada (take a look at the label on the container), the Canadian produced powder IS different from what came from Australia - virtually all of Hodgdon's data for loads with Clays were reduced when they changed the sourcing of the powder.

Then why are they calling for the exact same recipe today as in my 1993 manual for the 12ga load I checked? I can believe they change where it is made, but not that it is any hotter or colder.

 

[oneounceload]

You have the older Clays, use the older data. The new stuff is not from Australia, but from Canada and the properties are slightly different thus the load data is slightly different.

 

[boatbum101]

Even the old stuff was spiky . When it first came around some of our fellow BE shooters extrolled its virtues . So next time we Ransom Rest tested some guns we also included their loads . In the 45acp & 38 special case it was even faster than Bullseye , had wide extreme spreads etc . I decided then & there it wasn't suitable . Today I don't know of a single 2700 shooter who uses it . All that said I know nothing of the newer Canadian produced stuff .

 

[DWalt]

A manufacturer will not change the ballistics properties of a named propellant. If they change ballistics properties significantly, they will also change its name. Ballistics properties can also be changed by age or storage conditions. There are various reasons unrelated to ballistics properties why a manufacturer may change reloading charge data in its publications for its products. Therefore it is a good idea to always use the newest load data from the manufacturer.

I suspect that the Clays data given for the .40 in the 22 year old publication was a mistake or a misprint.

 

[jejb]

You have the older Clays, use the older data. The new stuff is not from Australia, but from Canada and the properties are slightly different thus the load data is slightly different.

Actually, it's not slightly different, it's quite a bit different. 3.4 vs 4.4 grs for the max load is something like 22%. There is no way they changed the powder that much, and most likely not at all. Especially since other recipes are still the same after all these years.

 

[jejb]

I suspect that the Clays data given for the .40 in the 22 year old publication was a mistake or a misprint.

25 year old manual, actually. Man, where does the time go? But I agree with you, I believe it was probably a mistake.

 

[daniel lawecki]

I ran into the same thing a year or to ago. Know I check several sources and then recheck. Clays is a good powder but from min charge to max is tight. So double check your charge and if possible use a powder check or lock out die. My progressive always sports that die on my press.

 

[glowe]

I crossed it out, but you can still see it says 4.4: . . . 1993 manual.

Thanks for posting that page. Now that is scary! My old manual is a 1996 and we know that the factory did not move during those 3 years. It had to be a data entry error, but was it the only one??

 

[bluetopper]

Clays is ok in low pressure calibers like 38 or 45acp, no way I'd load it in 9 or 40.

 

[carpriver]

Like most reloader's I will check the manufactures web site for load data and a couple of newer manuals. I start at the minimum load data and work up from there. when there is a grain difference between min. and max. I measure every drop.

 

[jejb]

Clays is ok in low pressure calibers like 38 or 45acp, no way I'd load it in 9 or 40.

Well, you need to load what you feel good about loading. But 3.9grs of Clays behind a 115gr Berry plated RN bullet is a sweet shooting 9mm load. Low recoil and accurate.

 

[jejb]

What did your primers and brass look like after shot?

Sorry, forgot to answer this question. They looked perfectly normal. I've seen overloaded brass before, and these showed none of those signs.

 

[Electric Head]

Since it was a load published by Hodgon themselves, I'd sure hope I was never in the "kaboom" range!

I'm not sure I buy that the powder changes. That would be a pretty dangerous thing for a manf to do in our sue happy country. I'd guess they'd just create a new name for it and market it as a new powder.

EDIT: I just checked a load from that manual for 12ga loading. It was exactly the same recipe from the older book to the current data on the Hodgon website. So I really don't think the powders change.

I agree about the powders not changing over time, it is one thing that really does not make sense to make more potent as time goes on. And it does seem that is what happens as loading manuals seem to list less and less as the max load. I feel that is more a liability thing on their part versus newer powder batches actually getting more potent.

Secondly, I have never seen so many typos but in published loading manuals. The one place you would HOPE that they CHECK more than any other (well almost all) published information. It is always good to verify data from several sources. I'd say the 4.4 was a typo (supposed to be 3.4).

 

[Electric Head]

Then why are they calling for the exact same recipe today as in my 1993 manual for the 12ga load I checked? I can believe they change where it is made, but not that it is any hotter or colder.

Yeh I don't see what being made here (Australia) or in Canada really has to do with it. The same product is being made, and being the same product it is reasonable to ASSUME it would have the same properties.

It doesn't matter if it is made here or there, nor even if the production method or even the recipe is different, as long as the end product has all the same properties (size, shape, colour, burn rate, energy density, etc.).

 

[DWalt]

Having worked for Hercules back in the days before it became Alliant, I can tell you that the powder manufacturers can rather easily produce about any level of ballistic performance desired, within limits. You may not know that Bullseye and Unique are of EXACTLY the same formulation. The only difference is that the flakes are of different thickness (Bullseye has thinner flakes).

 

[rwsmith]

I use hot loads......

I use hot loads from older manuals. BUT I start from where I left off with the newer data and work up by .2 grains. I got up to .4 grains higher than the latest data (6 gr) and had .6 grains to get to the 7 gr. top load. After trying 6.4 gr, I decided to use that load only for serious work, and backed off to 6.2 as MY max load

Key words are strong, modern gun. In this case it was a model 10.

 

[rwsmith]

They change, but not....

ballistically. I think 'new' Unique is supposed to be cleaner burning but exactly the same for reloading.

 

[rwsmith]

Proofreading????

I agree about the powders not changing over time, it is one thing that really does not make sense to make more potent as time goes on. And it does seem that is what happens as loading manuals seem to list less and less as the max load. I feel that is more a liability thing on their part versus newer powder batches actually getting more potent.

Secondly, I have never seen so many typos but in published loading manuals. The one place you would HOPE that they CHECK more than any other (well almost all) published information. It is always good to verify data from several sources. I'd say the 4.4 was a typo (supposed to be 3.4).

Proofreading.....what's THAT? Dependence on computers have almost eliminated the proofreader. I hope powder manufacturers do some checking, but I know only a few other publications that do a good job.

Canister powder, they type we use, is closely controlled and tested so that containers are consistent and Kabooms won't happen. If it's slightly out of spec it goes in the bulk bin. Bulk powders sold to ammo manufactures are more variable, but they can be tested and the load adjusted for each batch of powder. It would be nice to have your own ballistics lab. I'd think that a small, precise quantity of powder set off in an enclosed Parr bomb would be a simple, fast way to give comparable pressures.

 

[2152hq]

Kind of odd that in that 1993 manual, that one Clays loading that the OP used is the only Clays loading listed on the entire page for anything.
Right above it is a Universal loading. That has only one other load listed on the entire page (upper right group).

Clays hit the market in early 1992. This load data if it is not a typo or other data entry mistake of somekind, is probably their very first for the (shotgun) powder in a handgun caliber.

The load listed is a Max load IIRC how the manual works.
Starting loads were supposed to be reduced by 10% or something like that.
Even then it would be over the top by the most recent data by my failed math.

I shoot some Clays in handgun, but keep it and most all my loads at the starting point or near it.
The primary use is 12ga shotgun and had been for nearly 25yrs till just recently when I switched to Alliant ClayDot for 12ga. The 'new' Canadian mfg Clays which I was finally able get a jug of is too light and fluffy for lack of a better word. It bridges in the drop tube of the MEC and was immedietly giving me troubles with powder drop. One light,,the next near double,,ect in the Mec. Sometimes bridging in the tube and not dropping til the progressive would rotate and jar the powder loose in the tube, spilling it all over as the hulls moved on to their next station.
A fine mess you've gotten us into Ollie..

I'll use it in handgun loads w/a scoop measure I guess. I don't trust it now in a powder measure.

ClayDot uses the same load data recipe as H/Clays in 12ga. It's a bit denser so the charge weights are a little heavier for the same bushing but that is accounted for in the data.

I've no intention of trying ClayDot in a handgun load. Plenty of other load data powders in stock for that w/o trying to guess what would be anappropriate load.
As long as those lab tested powders don't have typos in their published data we're all OK!

 

[wxl]

Probably the 1993 manual of 4.4gr was not a misprint but erroneous recommended load. My 1995 manual shows 3.5gr Clays. I lived in Australia from 1991 to 1999 and used mostly ADI powders for shotgun, rifle and handgun. My early 1990s (no date on manual) ADI manual shows "4.6gr AS/AP30N for 180 Jacketed" for 40 S&W. The AS/AP30, AS/AP50 and AS/AP70 were equivalent Clays, International and Universal. Either bad recommendation or error from ADI transferred over to Hodgdon.