Grandpa's S&W.38 special Military and Police 2nd Model (Model of 1902)

[lts70]

I have inherited my grandpa's S&W.38 special Military and Police 2nd Model (Model of 1902).Manufactured c. 1902-1903.

On the bottom of the handle it is stamped with a star next to the 316xx serial number. What does the star stand for if anything?

It came with a 1939 Eubanks Leather (Boise ID) flap holster that needs restitched as the belt loop is falling off. I really want to keep the gun and holster together and have them useable, so I am going to have it restitched by a professional.

I grew up shooting this gun and have nothing but good memories surrounding it. I am very proud to be able to carry it forward another generation and plan on passing it down to my boy as well when the time comes.

I was told it was my grandfathers revolver when he was in the ROTC while going to college at Idaho University in the late 30’s. which explains the military and police markings on both gun and holster.

Any information on this gun or holster would be greatly appreciated if anyone has any history to add for this model. To be honest I know little to nothing about revolver history. I did not even know it was so old of a gun until I found this site.

I need to find a replacement grip handle. Anyone know where I might be able to find a black rubber grip for the opposite side of the gun that is shown in the picture. It is cracked clean through and was glued back together at some point.

Thanks

 

[murphydog]

Welcome to the Forum. The star indicates a factory rework, usually but not always a refinishing; it was stamped so the returned gun could not be passed off as new.

Yours has a 6 1/2" barrel which was standardized at 6" not many years after it was made. It should not be used with high-pressure loads should you decide to shoot it.

If you post a Wanted to Buy ad here you should specify you are looking for "pre-war round butt hard rubber service stocks". Hope this is helpful.

 

[Oldiron]

If you have no luck finding an original replacement grip for the pistol, try looking at vintagegungrips.com. Found them by looking at the supplier code on some grips at Midway USA. They have reproductions of all kinds and even in lots of colors. (about $24.00 +s&h)
Larry

 

[DCWilson]

Take the stocks off and check the inside right panel. You may find the gun's serial number scratched on the inside right surface. If so, don't throw the old stocks away when you replace them for appearance's sake. They were factory fitted to the gun nearly 110 years ago. Even broken and worn, they have value, and they belong with that piece. If there is no number, it may be those stocks date to the time when the gun went back for service.

One other thing. look on the steel grip frame while you have the stocks off and see if there is a stamped number like 11.16 -- that would mean November of 1916, and that would be the month in which the gun went back to the factory for work.

I'm not quite sure when the policy of date-stamping service returns began, but your gun may have been on the proper side of the boundary to be stamped.

When you get the holster repaired, you can carry the gun in it, but don't store it in the holster. Leather has acids that can attack the gun's finish. You can get a silicone impregnated gun sock at any gun store, or a silicone cloth that you can wrap around it.

If the action is sound, you can shoot that gun. But avoid all overpressure ammo (+P, +P+) and stay with the standard or soft loads. I shoot 148 gr wadcutter match ammo in all my prewar M&Ps (including a four-inch 1902/first change that is just a year or two younger than yours).

And welcome to the forum! I should have said that first.

 

[mikepriwer]

If possible, post a picture (or two) of the other side of the gun.

One of the interesting things about this gun is that it has a straight
tapered barrel, with no shoulder at the frame face. Only the model
of 1899, and the model of 1902 (no change) use this barrel. In about
1903, there was an engineering change that beefed up the frame
face, and the threaded portion of the barrel. This resulted in a
shoulder on the barrel, that exists to this day. That early engineering
change results in the guns being known as 1902 1st change.

Mike Priwer

 

[lts70]

The inside of the grip does have the serial number scratched in to it. There is also a stamp of 6.49 on the frame under the grips. Here are some more pictures. Let me know if there are any other angles that would help see what I got.

 

[mikepriwer]

I can't tell what might have been done, by the factory, when it was
returned in June of 1949. Possibly a refinish, possibly something else.
Nonetheless. what you have is an early Model of 1902.

I wanted to see the left side of the gun, to look at the ends of the
studs. They are properly rounded, so if the factory did refinish it, they
probably removed them first.

Your grip problem is easily fixed. Find another pair of grips, which are
readily available, but replace only the broken left panel. Don't replace
the right panel - that is the one that is serial-numbered to the gun,
and it is fine. You want to keep it that way. Grips for these guns
are always available at gun shows, and even from members here.

Mike Priwer

 

[lts70]

Thanks a ton! How good of shape does this gun seem for its age to you guys.

I am going to call my dad tonight and let him know what I have found out about the gun. It will be fun to tell him that it was manufactured early on in 1902, that it was sent back in to S&W in 6.49, and that the grips are even original. What would a gun like this be worth? Don’t get me wrong it will never be for sale god willing but would be fun to tell my dad it could be worth as much as X amount of $$.

How much should I expect to pay for the grip side? Is there a place to put a WTB on this forum?

So what type of frame is this gun?

Is it a first change or a second change with not having the barrel sholder?

 

[mikepriwer]

This K-frame gun is from early 1903, and is known as a Model of 1902. Following
the engineering changes I mentioned, the collectors refer to those guns
as Model of 1902 1st change. From the collectors perspective, there
were no other changes to the 1902; they roll it into the next model,
the Model of 1905. The factory did not do this, but that is another story.

For its age, the gun is in good condition. It shows some blue loss, and
some wear to the surfaces, but that is to be expected from a 110 year
old gun that was used. I don't recall if you checked the bore - typically
they will exhibit pitting, because of the corrosive black-powder of the
period. Clean it well, and keep it oiled. I have a feeling this gun has
been refinished; the original-period blue was somewhat delicate, and
would typically exhibit a peeling effect, even though it was not peeling
off. The blue on this gun looks more durable, and is not showing any
peeling effect.

I also don't recall if you checked the serial numbers on the rear face
of the cylinder, and on the flat area under the barrel. If the gun is
all original, those numbers will all be the same.

The highest known serial number for an early model of 1902 is 33803,
so this gun is close to the introduction of the heavier barrel. The model
of 1902 started at about serial number 20500, so there are only about
13,000 early model 1902's made. Maybe 10% survive to this day,
plus or minus a few. Its a scarce gun; given its condition, its perhaps
a $300 to $350 gun, maybe $400 to the right collector.

While this gun is collectible, its condition is not high enough to warrant
a high price. But, it has collector interest. The thing about this gun
is the relatively soft steel of the period. This means it not suitable
for shooting the hotter +p loads , for example.

Hope this helps, Mike Priwer

 

[lts70]

Thanks for all of the info.

It does have the matching serial # on the bottom of the barrel and in the back of the cylinder. The bore looks to be in great shape with no pitting that I can see. Is it bad from a collector’s point of view that it may have been refinished? If it has already been refinished once would it be bad to have it redone?

 

[mikepriwer]

Its only my guess that its been refinished once. Where you found that
date under the grips, look for something like [R], or , or <R>, or
perhaps [R-B]. Those are some of the markings for a refinish. Check all
around both sides of the grip frame.

Unless there is some good reason, refinishing always has a detrimental
effect on the collector value of the gun, because then the gun has
zero percent original finish; its been refinished. In the case of this gun,
the factory will not work on it , because its too old. They no longer have
parts for these old guns; any gun that comes in for any servicing is
always checked to make sure it functions properly. Since they have
no parts, they can't fix anything if it needed it, and therefore their
policy is to not accept guns this old, for any servicing.

The problem with refinishing is that the original roll markings often
get washed out, or even are lost. This is because a good refinish
requires a near-perfect surface. Any dings, dents, scratches, rust pits,
etc, have to be removed by filing and sanding, and this is what
damages the roll markings.

Bottom line is - unless there is some good reason to have a gun
refinished , do not do it.

Mike Priwer

 

[lts70]

On the under side of the barrel next to the serial # it has a B inside a dimond <B> stamped into the metal. But there are no other markings besides the 6.49 under the grips.

In the handle frame ridgeline metal it has some decrative etching design running the length of the back strap, would that be original?

 

[mikepriwer]

The <B> under the barrel means that something specific was done to
the barrel. Like maybe it was replaced, and serial-numbered to the
frame. The serial number on the rear face of the cylinder should be
a very fine, small, and lightly-stamped serial number. An original
serial number under the barrel would also use the same small, fine,
number stamps, and they would be very close to the frame. Does it
look this way ? If possible, get us some close-up pictures of the
serial number in all three places; butt, rear face of cylinder, and flat
under the barrel.

As to some decoration on the rear grip stap, get us a picture or
two , of that. Without seeing a picture, I don't know what that might
be.

Mike Priwer

 

[ar15ed]

i am going to a gunshow this weekend. i will look for a pair of grips. (or possibly just the left one!)

 

[Alk8944]

Blowing up the pictures with the holster the gun does not show any indications of being re-finished. The factory date-code and re-work star indicate that something was done to it in 1949. What would be definitive is if there is an indication of "cratering", a raised burr, around the star on the butt. If the gun has not been re-finished since that stamp was applied this will be obvious. If it is polished smooth the gun was re-finished after the star was applied.

Again, blowing up the picture it appears this gun has the hardened inserts in the cylinder stop notches. This is characteristic of only very early hand-ejectors and ended about 1906 or so. Are the inserts there?

Both Vintage Gun Grips and N.C. Ordnance insist they do not make a reproduction stock for a M&P, unfortunately. This one, S & W Perfected Model .38 Revolver , may work. It is for the "Perfected Model which was a hinged frame revolver built on what appears to be the M&P frame.

FWIW, the Military & Police markings have nothing to do with your Grandfather owning it while he was in ROTC. S&W designated the model as M&P, and Eubank marked the holster to indicate it was intended to fit that model, nothing more.

Eubank Leather later became Idaho Leather and made very well thought of holsters. The company is still in Boise, although under different ownership, and still makes the old-style basket stamped, laced and 1/2 lined holsters they were well known for for many years. They are all custom work now, and definitely do not sell for $6-8 like they did in the 1960s.

 

[Teddydog]

Thanks for posting pictures of your Grandfather's revolver! I have enjoyed seeing it and the discussion and information. I have learned something about the 1902 that I have (also an early model with a 4" barrel). I'm quite sure mine has original finish, but not much of that. I think it shows what another member mentioned as the fragile finish that tends to look like it flaked or peeled off. This is SN 28,069.

Rob

 

[mikepriwer]

The 4" gun illustrates the "peeling" effect on the cylinder, although its
not peeling. Its just what happens to these early finishes.

This gun, to me, is the classic K-frame. The proportions have a lot of
eye appeal. There is a lot of blue loss, perhaps due to blood. Beyond that, its a classic.

Mike Priwer

 

[lts70]

more pictures

 

[lts70]

..........

 

[mikepriwer]

Thanks for the additional pictures. I think that the barrel was replaced,
and when that was done, the gun was reblued. This doesn't change
anything about the gun, but its what I think.

The primary indicator of this is the serial numbers that are stamped
under the barrel. That, in my view, is not the right stamping, for the
1903 - 1904 period. When the gun was originally made, the stamping
dies used were very fine, and small, and produced very lightly
stamped digits. They were also in a very straight line.

The present serial number stamping is exactly the opposite. The
digits do not lie in a straight line, and the are stamped very deeply.
This is much more like the stampings of the late 1940's .

I would presume that the factory had some extra spare-parts barrels
from this period. This is because this barrel has the dual-caliber
stamping. Maybe it was an extra one from 1903, and was already
blued, although I doubt it. Rather I would think that it needed to be
blued, after fitting it to this frame, and to make the colors match,
they probably refinished the entire gun.

The marking on the rear grip strap is not factory. Someone did that
decoration; I have no idea as to who, when, or where.

Regards, Mike Priwer