Curt Dawson
Member
What were the most common carry guns and holsters of the differnt federal agencies during the time of 1920-1950?Photos from the era will be greatly appreciated.
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Guns of the Fed's 1920-1950
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Texas Star
US Veteran
The Colt Official Police (and its earlier version, the Army Special) were probably the overwhelming choice, but some S&W's and military surplus .45 revolvers saw some use, too, especially in the Border Patrol and the US Postal Service. Park Rangers also used some M-1917's.
I used to read those books by C.B. Colby about various cop shops, and these were the overwhelming choices.
I have also read books on the various agencies, confirming this info.
After the early 1960's, S&W began to dominate the game. Colts just had too many cylinder timing issues, and S&W often had a price advantage, and the guns had actions that many preferred.
This is the easiest to answer of all those impossible "which cops used what" questions. Usually, there is too much variance to give simple answers. This time was an exception.
I know that it isn't all-inclusive, but will cover most of what you asked.
Some Detective Specials and snub S&W's were used for plainclothes and backup needs. (The S&W Bodyguard was developed to meet the needs of an unspecified US Agency. However it appeared a few years after your time frame.)
The .357 magnum was popular with the FBI for years, but most revolvers they issued were still .38's.
Keep in mind that in those days, personal guns were common, too. Not everyone carried the official issue piece.
T-Star
I used to read those books by C.B. Colby about various cop shops, and these were the overwhelming choices.
I have also read books on the various agencies, confirming this info.
After the early 1960's, S&W began to dominate the game. Colts just had too many cylinder timing issues, and S&W often had a price advantage, and the guns had actions that many preferred.
This is the easiest to answer of all those impossible "which cops used what" questions. Usually, there is too much variance to give simple answers. This time was an exception.
I know that it isn't all-inclusive, but will cover most of what you asked.
Some Detective Specials and snub S&W's were used for plainclothes and backup needs. (The S&W Bodyguard was developed to meet the needs of an unspecified US Agency. However it appeared a few years after your time frame.)
The .357 magnum was popular with the FBI for years, but most revolvers they issued were still .38's.
Keep in mind that in those days, personal guns were common, too. Not everyone carried the official issue piece.
T-Star
Bell Charter Oak Holsters
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Gnerally, I agree with the remarks of TexasStar. I would add that the 1911 auto was also popularly carried by many Fed's, in particular the U.S. Dept. Of The Treasury, Bureau of Narcotics. The predecessor to the modern DEA. A number of noteable FBI agents also preferred the Colt .45 ACP for obvious reasons and they were easily available. Most Fed's I knew back in NYC were packing S&W or Colt .38 Specials. A few carried autos before the popular transition to autoloaders which by that time (late 70's early 80's) became the order of the day for most law enforcement agencies. I think it would be fair to say that classic revolvers like the Registered .357 Magnum, .44 Hand Ejector's and the like were certainly carried by some Federal agents, the Registered Magnum in particular by the FBI guys. But I think overall, that would be an exception in contrast to the rather common service type weapons most other Federal agents typically carried for work. After the Chief's Special was introduced, Colt's Detective Special remained popular right through the 1960's. In the end though, the little Chiefs Special offered compact convenience, concealment and adequately effective performance. I think it became the preeminent choice of most lawmen in plainclothes, particularly in large cities across America for those reasons.
The M&P 1905 Hand Ejectors S&W's and the Colt models in comparable frame sizes like the Army Special and Official Police models probably made up the lionshare of what they were issued and/or carried c. 1920-50. I think that would be a fair assertion.
The M&P 1905 Hand Ejectors S&W's and the Colt models in comparable frame sizes like the Army Special and Official Police models probably made up the lionshare of what they were issued and/or carried c. 1920-50. I think that would be a fair assertion.
Photog
Member
My dad started with the Federal Bureau of Narcotics in 1950, retiring in 1972. He started off carrying a Colt Detective Special, went to a Colt Cobra and finally ended his career carrying a Colt Agent. The Agent, and he thinks the Cobra, had the factory hammer shroud installed. He can't remember about the Detective Special. He carried a Heiser holster early on (which I still have) and a Bucheimer at the end, which I also still have. When he retired agents weren't allowed to purchase or take their service weapons with them. I do have a Colt Agent and Cobra in the same configuration as he carried.
Near the end of his career, the BNDD (Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs) allowed agents to carry any weapon they qualified with. He was Agent in Charge when he retired.
Agents under his command carried some of the following for duty and back up:
Browing HP
S42 Luger (honest!)
S&W M60, 36
S&W M39
Mauser HSc
Walther PPK/s
And some others I can't remember. FWIW, I found the last cylinder full of ammo that my dad carried when he retired. It consisted of 5 rounds of Winchester 158 gr. Lead RN and one round of Super Vel 110 gr. "Police Only" load.
As for long guns, the two that I rememeer were a 1897 Trench Gun (in the Denver office) and right before he left the Cleveland office, a M1A1 Thompson. In the office safe in Cleveland they also had a unfired (until I got to shoot it) Ithaca 1911A1 and a M&P, 6" Blue unfired in the Gold Box....again until I shot it. We tested the new Super Vel ammo in it.
I remember my dad shooting his Colt Agent with 148 gr. wadcutter ammo. One handed, he would put 3 consecutive shots in a 4" bullseye at 50 yards.
Near the end of his career, the BNDD (Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs) allowed agents to carry any weapon they qualified with. He was Agent in Charge when he retired.
Agents under his command carried some of the following for duty and back up:
Browing HP
S42 Luger (honest!)
S&W M60, 36
S&W M39
Mauser HSc
Walther PPK/s
And some others I can't remember. FWIW, I found the last cylinder full of ammo that my dad carried when he retired. It consisted of 5 rounds of Winchester 158 gr. Lead RN and one round of Super Vel 110 gr. "Police Only" load.
As for long guns, the two that I rememeer were a 1897 Trench Gun (in the Denver office) and right before he left the Cleveland office, a M1A1 Thompson. In the office safe in Cleveland they also had a unfired (until I got to shoot it) Ithaca 1911A1 and a M&P, 6" Blue unfired in the Gold Box....again until I shot it. We tested the new Super Vel ammo in it.
I remember my dad shooting his Colt Agent with 148 gr. wadcutter ammo. One handed, he would put 3 consecutive shots in a 4" bullseye at 50 yards.
Farmer17
Member
I've heard that several of the old Feds during the gangster era carried Colt 1911 .38 Supers because of their penetration qualities against automobiles. I remember reading about one of the famous gangsters that was shot at by the Feds with a Thompson as he was speeding away. They later found the car with bullet hits all over it but none of the .45 ACP rounds penetrated the cabin. Those old car bodies had some pretty thick skin!
Texas Star
US Veteran
Lefty made a good point about the .45 auto being popular among BNDD agents. I recall a Colt holster catalog of the 1960's mentioning that in the copy for one .45 auto holster.
In a junior high school class visit to the FBI field office here, I recall a M-27 or pre-27 with five-inch bbl. and a VERY smooth action among the .38's. The only handgun I owned then was a Webley MK. VI and I was impressed by the slickness of that .357's honed (?) action.
A few years later, in high school, a Special Agent addressed us on Career Day. He carried a Bodyguard. Don't recall if it was steel or Airweight framed. I suspect that he wanted a small, handy gun for what he thought would be a light duty day.
T-Star
In a junior high school class visit to the FBI field office here, I recall a M-27 or pre-27 with five-inch bbl. and a VERY smooth action among the .38's. The only handgun I owned then was a Webley MK. VI and I was impressed by the slickness of that .357's honed (?) action.
A few years later, in high school, a Special Agent addressed us on Career Day. He carried a Bodyguard. Don't recall if it was steel or Airweight framed. I suspect that he wanted a small, handy gun for what he thought would be a light duty day.
T-Star
delete, off thread, sorry.
In the 1930s, when Charles Askins was in charge of their firearms training, the US Border Patrol carried Colt New Service revolvers, chambered in .38 special.
jimgoldth
US Veteran
The first FBI Agent I ever met was in 1964 and was in charge of the firearms segment of the police acadamy class that I was attending. He was carrying a pencil barrel M&P 4" carried in carved tan holster with a hammer protector. He carried 3 Remington Hi-way Master 110 gr (1330 fps) Metal Penetrating rounds followed by 3 Winchester 200 gr. (730 fps) rounds. He told us he always used factory loads. I always wondered how far apart those two rounds grouped. He said that he figured that the odds were that his first shots would be at a vehicle and if he were to fire more than three rounds he would be shooting at a man and he believed that the 200 gr was best manstopper in a 38 special.
p0838
Member
Photog
I very much enjoyed your story.
I very much enjoyed your story.
ttpete
Member
An old timer friend of mine (RIP), worked for the Post Office during the 1920s-30s as a Special Delivery messenger, delivering on a motorcycle. He said he carried a 1917 Smith while working there. The postal system doesn't really have a service like that anymore. He said he handled a lot of diamonds and securities because it was the most secure way to do it.
During the 1920's and early 1930's a known Federal Agent of the period (who's name eludes me at the moment) used to carry a S&W .32 Hand Ejector of the period. He was purported to have been an excellent marksman. He engaged in a number of gunfights and won each and every one of them. This goes to illustrate that it's not the gun that wins the fight, but the man holding it.
Scott
Scott
OP
Curt Dawson
Member
I seem to recall Elmer Keith mentioing a FBI agent he knew carring a short barreled Merwin & Hubert 44-40.How did the 38 super 1911's compare in popularity to the 45's?
Which was more popular back in the day iwb or shoulder holsters?Strong side or cross draw?And did barrel length affect the choice?
I have seen photo's of 6" revolvers carried in both strong and cross draw holsters of plain clothes leo's.
Which was more popular back in the day iwb or shoulder holsters?Strong side or cross draw?And did barrel length affect the choice?
I have seen photo's of 6" revolvers carried in both strong and cross draw holsters of plain clothes leo's.
sigp220.45
US Veteran
Curt - I know the FBI used to issue Colt .38 Supers, because there were a couple permanently welded into a display case in the New Orleans Field Office in the 90s.
I know a guy who was helping move a Field Office from one building to another. He found an old case of .38 Super ammunition in the gun vault. Since we hadn't issued Supers for about 50 years at that point they told him to keep it. I've been trying to get it ever since.
I think most agents carried issued Colt and Smith .38s, with a wide leeway for personal guns. If you find the thread by retired FBI SA Larry Wack there is a link to his website where there is a great story about a Bu-agent popping away at some whiskey thieves with his issued Smith and Wesson .35 auto!
I know a guy who was helping move a Field Office from one building to another. He found an old case of .38 Super ammunition in the gun vault. Since we hadn't issued Supers for about 50 years at that point they told him to keep it. I've been trying to get it ever since.
I think most agents carried issued Colt and Smith .38s, with a wide leeway for personal guns. If you find the thread by retired FBI SA Larry Wack there is a link to his website where there is a great story about a Bu-agent popping away at some whiskey thieves with his issued Smith and Wesson .35 auto!
Texas Star
US Veteran
I think that G. Gordon Liddy mentioned having an uncle in the FBI, who carried a .38 Super.
T-Star
T-Star
kwill1911
SWCA Member
Here's a pre-war Super .38 presented to Daniel Milton Ladd (Assistant to the Director) by none other than Delf "Jelly" Bryce. Bryce was SAC of the El Paso office at the time, which probably explains the Mexican grips. The engraving was done by Wilbur Glahn. Ladd's initials are inscribed on the backstrap in addition to being on the grips.
Kevin,
That is a "SUPER" Super!! And what a provenance...Ladd, Bryce and Glahn! Bryce became SAC of the El Paso office on April 29, 1941. What was the date of the presentation Colt?
On a related subject:
On page 97 of "Jelly Bryce-Legendary Lawman" the following statements are made:
"Another legend has it that because of his firearms prowness, Bryce had one of the first .357 Magnum revolvers produced by Smith & wesson. Some say he purchased it and some say it was presented to him. ...If D. A. Bryce purchased or was given one, the records do not reflect it. A letter in Smokey Hilbert's OCPD peronnel file shows that he and Lt. Newt Burns ordered two of the new guns for official duty purposes through the OCPD on Febuary 10, 1936. One of the guns was blued and one was nickeled, each costing $48."
Have any of these RM's shown up in your database?
Bob
That is a "SUPER" Super!! And what a provenance...Ladd, Bryce and Glahn! Bryce became SAC of the El Paso office on April 29, 1941. What was the date of the presentation Colt?
On a related subject:
On page 97 of "Jelly Bryce-Legendary Lawman" the following statements are made:
"Another legend has it that because of his firearms prowness, Bryce had one of the first .357 Magnum revolvers produced by Smith & wesson. Some say he purchased it and some say it was presented to him. ...If D. A. Bryce purchased or was given one, the records do not reflect it. A letter in Smokey Hilbert's OCPD peronnel file shows that he and Lt. Newt Burns ordered two of the new guns for official duty purposes through the OCPD on Febuary 10, 1936. One of the guns was blued and one was nickeled, each costing $48."
Have any of these RM's shown up in your database?
Bob
sigp220.45
US Veteran
I know you've all seen this picture of Jelly Bryce showing his form with his RM:
What do you make of the odd positioning of his middle finger?
What do you make of the odd positioning of his middle finger?
ttpete
Member
Originally posted by sigp220.45:
I know you've all seen this picture of Jelly Bryce showing his form with his RM:
What do you make of the odd positioning of his middle finger?
The gun could have had the factory grip adapter installed.
