H-110 and W-296 Are Not The Same

[semperfi71]

Now that my title has your attention...

I have been reloading handgun cartridges since 1973. I have been using H-110 in .357 and .44 magnum cartridges since then as well. As the years went by I also used 2400 and W-296. These days I have added AA9 to the list.

In a thread here a few months back someone asked if W-296 and H-110 were different powders. Most everyone said “No”.

Except me.

Yes, many reports, here and elsewhere, have stated that the powders are the same and that H-110 is actually W-296 but only shipped to Hodgdon’s and packaged by them as H-110. Or maybe packaged somewhere else and sold by Hodgdon’s. However it “becomes” H-110 does not matter to me. I like both powders.

I do not contend that anyone, including the factory representatives are lying…or obscuring the truth….or drinking to excess.

But, I do contend that both powders are different, as to accuracy and as to loading quantities. Several reloading manuals will show different load weights for different velocities and different load weights for maximum pressures.

I have always heard that it is possible, or even necessary to know, that the same powder can vary from lot to lot as to velocity, pressure, and accuracy. And that therefore one must always start low with a new lot of the same powder and work back up to that "sweet load”. I have never tested that theory and do not agree or disagree. And…some of the “H-110 and W-296 are the same” folks…do say that the only difference between the two powders is the same as a lot-to-lot difference between themselves, I.E. H-110 lot #105 versus H-110 lot #106. That may be true. Being cautious with lot variances seems like prudent knowledge.

Today, I shot my M27-2 4 inch for accuracy. I was shooting at 25 yards, from a beanbag rest with both hands extended beyond the bag and holding the pistol with two hands. Wind, essentially calm, sky overcast, and temperatures at about 45ish. I always aim at the bottom of the bull for best sight picture and alignment.

I shot 5 shot groups. In my data below if you see a group in parenthesis after the first group that is the size minus the one really obvious flyer. I loaded only 158 grain jacketed hollow-points to the following powder weights. I was not loading for a common velocity but for just a safe starting load. Here’s the load weights: H-110-14.5 grains, 2400-13.5 grains, W-296-13.5 grains, AA9-12.0 grains.

Below are the results. I contend that if you are curious about the “difference” between H-110 and W-296, you must load and shoot both powders, always.

Also, there is no such thing as the “best” powder for a given caliber. All of the four powders mentioned here gave very good accuracy depending on the bullet used.

I believe that one must always experiment to the “n-th” degree if they are truly interested in finding the “best” load.

And I realize that we have even more “magnum” powders to choose from now, but I’m stopping here! I have more guns and “honey-dos” to tend to and therefore limited time to try more powders.

Plus, I have a life-time supply of H-110 and now have to justify that purchase by shooting it all before I expire!!!

I hope this data helps folks some.

Sierra 158 grain HP: H-110-3 3/4 inches, 2400-3 1/4 inches, W-296-4 1/4 inches, AA9-3 3/8 inches

Nosler 158 grain HP: H-110-2 1/2 inches, 2400-2 7/8 inches, W-296-3 1/4 inches, AA9-3 inches

Win. 158 grain HP: H110-1 5/8 inches, 2400-4 1/4 (1 7/8) inches, W-296-4 1/4 inches, AA9-3 1/2 inches

Rem. 158 grain HP: H110-3 inches, 2400-4 3/4 (1 1/8) inches, W-296-3 1/8 inches, AA9-3 1/2 inches

Speer 158 grain HP: H110-4 1/4 inches, 2400-2 7/8 inches, W-296-1 1/4 inches, AA9-3 1/2 inches

Speer Gold Dot 158 grain HP: H-110-3 3/8 inches, 2400-2 1/4 inches, W-296-2 1/8 inches, AA9-2 inches

PS: My data was created by me, utilizing 3 manuals each of Sierra, Hodgdon, Speer, Nosler, and Hornady. Plus two from Accurate Arms. If you copy this data and load it and then screw something up. I ain’t responsible. Have a good day.

 

[Dragon88]

Were any of your manuals published after 2008?

 

[semperfi71]

Howdy Dragon88,

I do have the latest manuals from all mentioned, I do not know their publishing dates.

Regards.

 

[Paul5388]

According to Speer #10, page 368, the three loads used besides AA#9 are all less than the starting loads. FWIW, the H110 and W296 loads are identical and within 4 fps of each other in the top load of 17.8 gr with a magnum primer.

If I was going to attempt something similar to what you've done, I'd use a single shot rifle to check the accuracy. However, that only provides valid information for that one gun, unless the other one I have produced the same results.

 

[Alk8944]

semperfi71,

The only difference between H-110 and 296 is normal lot-to-lot variation. Depending on shipment date and lot size, even before Hodgdon became the distributor for Winchester powders, shipments from the same lot could be sent to both Winchester and Hodgdon to be packaged as their respective propellant.

This is not an opinion, a guess, or something I read or heard "somewhere". My source was one of the manufacturing engineers at St. Marks Powders in a phone conversation I personally had with him. St. Marks is the manufacturer of several propellants for not only Winchester and Hodgdon but other ammunition manufacturers as well.

Just in case you missed it, the manufacturer, St. Marks Powders, says H-110 and 296 both are made by them and are identical.

 

[semperfi71]

Alk8944,

I understand all that and do not disagree. However my data and several loading books of data indicate that H-110 and W-296 will differ in velocity and pressure data in the same weapon or test barrel.

My experience here, and in the past, is the two powders can create different results and therefore bear differences worth investigating in load development.

 

[Suwannee Tim]

I recently talked to a guy at Hodgdon and specifically asked if H110 and WW296 are the same and was told that they are. Same for HP38 and WW231. I'm too busy to call them again, anyone else want to do it?

 

[alwslate]

I'll venture an opinion. I think your loads with 296-H110 are too light
for consistent ignition. Are you using magnum primers? I suggest that
you increase your charge weight to 16.5 gr and use magnum primers
with 296-H110.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Well, you got my attention with the title. It did it's job!

I think your logic needs a little tweaking though. What is the vintage of the powders you compared? Are they from the same era? The only way you can assert your findings over what Hodgdon has said is to take two different lots of H110 or W296 and do a comparison. Compare the H110 old lot to H110 new lot to see what variances come from the same powder lot to lot. The same would apply to W296, compare old to new and see what you get. Then compare those different powders to one another. I will bet, and I'm not a gambling man, the differences aren't going to be any more than what you got lot to lot on the same brand of powder.

Just a suggestion.

 

[Rule3]

Based on all the Previous reports direct from the company, a random 5 shot sample from one individual with one gun is not anywhere close to being a Scientifically Valid Sample. You do not have enough samples and too many variables to make your results have any true scientific or statistical meaning.

No offense, but it just doesn't work that way.

Therefore based on this anecdotal evidence HP-38 and W-231 are not the same either.

 

[flat top]

I have always treated the two as "two different powders" even though they are supposed to be the same. If I have a load for my 44 mags with 296, I would not just dump the same quantity of 110 into a case and expect the same results, even though the results could be the same. Treat each powder and lot of that powder as an entity...a seperate powder, and start low and work up....play it safe. I am not going to let hearsay, or opinion, or a factory reps description keep me from doing otherwise.

 

[semperfi71]

flat top is dead on.

Again, I do not deny that the powders are the same. Too many reports here and elswhere say so. I heard of the similiarities years ago.

However when LOADING them I treat them a different and I do not expect to see the same accuracy and velocities. I have loaded both powders in other .357 loads and .44 magnum loads and have always had differing results.

My lot of H-110 dates back to 1992ish and my lot [one pound] of W-296 was purchased last year.

Anybody who attempts the same loading data as mine will have different results. They will be using a different weapon and holding different, etc., etc.

I am not "panning" either powder. My results indicated that for one bullet W-296 was more accurate and I will use that powder. For another H-110 was better and for that load I will use it. I even got a very accurate load with AA9, it too will be used.

But if one is to search for the most accurate load in any weapon he/she must utilize all powders available and treat them as different until the testing is done.

As an aside Elmer and Skeeter almost always said; "2400 for magnum loads and Unique for all others." Although I don't think Elmer ever shot anything other than full-house loads, he was tough.

BUT. Not all pistols will shoot those two powders accurately all the time with a wide variety of bullets. Yet many times we see here whereby our fellow shooters will state they only use one type of powder or another. Plus when someone asks; "What's an accurate powder for my .38?" The answer truly is; "All of them until you find the right one."

It's like being single and choosing girlfriends [or boyfriends if you are a girl].......You ain't gonna know until you try them ALL.

 

[Rule3]

Again, I do not deny that the powders are the same.

But you said they are the same?



My lot of H-110 dates back to 1992ish and my lot [one pound] of W-296 was purchased last year.

This Sir could make quite a difference. Perhaps buy a new jar of H-110, load 100 rds of each H-110 an W-296 then see if there is as much difference



It's like being single and choosing girlfriends [or boyfriends if you are a girl].......You ain't gonna know until you try them ALL.

These days to be Politically Correct this statement should be expanded to include......, well you know Not that there is anything wrong with that.

 

[Treeman]

Barnyard effluvia. One doesn't need to try all of anything. Simply pick one you like and make a commitment.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Two sides of this coin!

Barnyard effluvia. One doesn't need to try all of anything. Simply pick one you like and make a commitment.

Tree, the differences between powder and girlfriends needs to be mentioned. Try all the powders you want. Don't use the same philosophy with women unless you like taking penicillin!

The wife and I celebrate 32 years this week!

 

[semperfi71]

treeman,

Your philosphy works if you're happy with 5 inch groups at 25 yards. And if you're I'm happy for you too.

But I have found out that every S & W revolver I currently own (29 or more) from 2 inch barrels to 8 3/8 inch barrels is capable of 2 3/4 inch groups (or less) at 25 yards from a hand-held rest. With five shots.

So I load for that and get it by using the different powders, or bullets, that make it happen.

 

[johngalt]

IMHO, accuracy tests shot by hand from a sandbag aren't going to tell you much. The human factor is going to introduce far more variation than any small differences between powders. You need to shoot from a ransom rest to have a chance at quantifying potential accuracy differences.

 

[MMA10mm]

Based on all the Previous reports direct from the company, a random 5 shot sample from one individual with one gun is not anywhere close to being a Scientifically Valid Sample. You do not have enough samples and too many variables to make your results have any true scientific or statistical meaning.

No offense, but it just doesn't work that way.

Therefore based on this anecdotal evidence HP-38 and W-231 are not the same either.

This is a very good point, as is the statement by the poster above that hand-held group comparisons aren't much of a definitive determiner of whether two powders are the same are not.

If you want to waste your time and money doing these kinds of comparisons, by all means, feel free. (It's a great excuse to go to the range.) I think it's very silly or arrogant to say that your not going to listen to the factory reps. Winchester, Hodgdon, and St. Marks Powders have all admitted that many of the ball powders are on the market that are marketed by different companies under different names are powders that are identical powders and the differences you see between them are simply the lot-to-lot variations.

THAT is why you need to start low and work up when you get a new can of powder...

 

[Dragon88]

Out of curiosity I emailed Hodgdon about this today. Good customer support, I got two email replies within 24 hours.

I asked about the powders being the same, what happened after the merger, which formulation was kept after the merger, etc. Reply:

You are making it way too complicated. H110 and Winchester 296 have always been the exact same product under different label.

Then I asked if he knew why bullet manufacturers such as Sierra list different reloading data for the two. Reply:

Nope, I cannot say why others do what they do.

Good enough for me. But please, go ahead and argue with the people who actually make the product and tell them they are different. I'd like to nail down the differences in load data out there, but for my own personal use I'll just keep buying whichever bottle is cheaper and using data from Hodgdon's reloading center. Too easy.

 

[buck460XVR]

However when LOADING them I treat them a different and I do not expect to see the same accuracy and velocities.

....just cause you treat them different, don't make them different.......just makes you different.

My results indicated that for one bullet W-296 was more accurate and I will use that powder. For another H-110 was better and for that load I will use it.

...that's just the difference in lot numbers, not brand names, and every decent handloader knows this.


But alas, I guess you are correct, there is a difference. Most places I get components, W296 is cheaper than H110.