H&R 45-70 cavalry carbine ?

[sw44spl]

I have a chance to get one.does anyone know much about them.I have been wanting a 45-70 and it looks just like the ones from the 1800 but modern made.

 

[Glashaus]

I had one a long time ago, then I got into real ones. It was well made as I recall.

 

[MrOverlay]

I also have one and am very pleased with it.

 

[cgt4570]

FYI: 'Calvary' is a hill in Israel. 'Cavalry' is a horse-mounted soldier. ;-)

 

[bigwheelzip]

Your post had me curious about a firearm I'd never looked at, so a bit of digging found a couple of instances of the action exploding in the shooters face. A bit more digging found someone with a fix for the problem.

Looks like a fun gun. The 45-70 in a Highwall is on my list.

This was the fix for the exploding action, posted on another forum:

The H&R rifles are built on the 1884 design (low arch block, wider receiver, etc.) and tend to probably be the strongest Trapdoor out there when you consider the age or originals and questionable Italian steel (though so far my Pedersoli is just fine). What is a MAJOR problem with these rifles is the locking cam and can be dangerous if not corrected!
The problem is that the originals are a one-piece affair with the thumb piece on the shaft and locking cam with the bridle between the cam and thumbpiece that screws into the side of the block, holding it all together.
The H&R and Pedersoli rifles on the other hand don't use the bridle and the cam is seperate from the shaft and thumbpiece and is instead held on by a set screw. Now the difference between the H&R and Pedersoli repros is that the shaft where this set screw sits on the Pedersoli rifles is square where the H&R is round.
Now on the Pedersoli rifles, as long as the set screw is tight, it won't move on that shaft at all since the hole in the cam is square to fit over the square section of the shaft. On the H&R however with the shaft being round, the set screw doesn't have that good of a purchase on the shaft and if it loosens just a little bit, can lead to big problems. Problems like either not being able to open the breech at all (push on the thumbpiece and it and the shaft just spin under the cam) or worse, with the tang of the thumbpiece no longer held securely under the hammer, the block can fly open under full pressure and spit the empty case back at the shooter! Yes, it does happen, I've seen it a few times both when it locked up the rifle and when it blew empty cases out.
But now for the good news. It's an easy fix. There's three methods you can use to cure this problem.
First is to remove the cam and slide the shaft out, file a flat spot on the shaft where the set screw sits and put it back together. The flat spot gives the screw a better area on the shaft to set against and won't allow the shaft to spin under the cam.
The second method is to remove the shaft and cam again then drill a small hole where the set screw sits so again, you have a better surface.
The third method is not one I recommend by itself but is an option if you want to keep the H&R absolutely original and that is to simply loc-tite the set scew into the cam. Yeah, keeps it from backing out but doesn't make for a better area.
Personally, I like method one and as either of the first two methods, use a bit of loc-tite on the screw too. Now you will have a flat surface so the cam can't spin on the shaft and the loc-tite will prevent the scew from backing out during use as well. See, it's an easy fix and you get the strongest trapdoor out there to boot.

 

[Stevie]

I had been wanting an 1873 TD carbine....and the 'modern' ones like Pedersoli and Navy Arms...H&R etc are about as expensive as a serviceable original!!

I ended-up with a 1880 vintage carbine with a broken rear sight and missing front sight blade. It had been on an auction sight for month after month with no takers(and not a bad price). I asked the seller..who I've done business with before a few questions and then bid on the gun...and won it.

So for less than $800 I had a good bored TD carbine original. I then spent a bit over $100 with S&S firearms and got enough Buffington sight pieces(and a front blade) to fix the sights.

It's a typical US milsurp with mixed parts from overhauls...but shoots good as any TD carbine...and cost less than just ordering a new Pedersoli.

 

[sw44spl]

this H&R trapdoor carbine is dang near new and they want $475

 

[Drm50]

I had one back in 80s, OK for same loads you would shoot in the original, no hot rodding. I never had issue with it.

 

[deadin]

It's my understanding that an original TD cam and latch will fit the replicas.
(Or can be made to fit....)

 

[sigp220.45]

this H&R trapdoor carbine is dang near new and they want $475

I would be all over that.

I was walking into one of my regular spots as one was walking out. It was priced at more than yours, and I'm still kicking myself for missing it!

 

[samnev]

I own the H&R Officer's model as well as several other originals. The H&R has served me well and keeps me from shooting the originals which are all in exc+ condition. I jump on the H&R for $475.

 

[mxbob]

Have owned and shot two of these and certainly have no complaints.
Only problem I had was a broken tang sight but pretty easy fix. It got broke thorough my own misshandling.
Bob Ray

 

[jag312]

If you are going to shoot either an original or a replica, my suggestion is to load your own black powder cartridges. The Cavalry cartridge was different from the Infantry cartridge. The Infantry cartridge used approximately 70 grains of black powder with either a 405 grain or 500 grain hollow base bullet. The Cavalry cartridge used approximately 55 grains of black powder with a 405 grain hollow base bullet. I shoot both a Cavalry carbine (documented 7th Cavalry at Wounded Knee) and an Infantry rifle made in 1878. I use the Cavalry loading for both. If I owned a replica, I would use black powder cartridges. They speak with authority.

 

[model70hunter]

Your post had me curious about a firearm I'd never looked at, so a bit of digging found a couple of instances of the action exploding in the shooters face. A bit more digging found someone with a fix for the problem.

Looks like a fun gun. The 45-70 in a Highwall is on my list.

This was the fix for the exploding action, posted on another forum:

The H&R rifles are built on the 1884 design (low arch block, wider receiver, etc.) and tend to probably be the strongest Trapdoor out there when you consider the age or originals and questionable Italian steel (though so far my Pedersoli is just fine). What is a MAJOR problem with these rifles is the locking cam and can be dangerous if not corrected!
The problem is that the originals are a one-piece affair with the thumb piece on the shaft and locking cam with the bridle between the cam and thumbpiece that screws into the side of the block, holding it all together.
The H&R and Pedersoli rifles on the other hand don't use the bridle and the cam is seperate from the shaft and thumbpiece and is instead held on by a set screw. Now the difference between the H&R and Pedersoli repros is that the shaft where this set screw sits on the Pedersoli rifles is square where the H&R is round.
Now on the Pedersoli rifles, as long as the set screw is tight, it won't move on that shaft at all since the hole in the cam is square to fit over the square section of the shaft. On the H&R however with the shaft being round, the set screw doesn't have that good of a purchase on the shaft and if it loosens just a little bit, can lead to big problems. Problems like either not being able to open the breech at all (push on the thumbpiece and it and the shaft just spin under the cam) or worse, with the tang of the thumbpiece no longer held securely under the hammer, the block can fly open under full pressure and spit the empty case back at the shooter! Yes, it does happen, I've seen it a few times both when it locked up the rifle and when it blew empty cases out.
But now for the good news. It's an easy fix. There's three methods you can use to cure this problem.
First is to remove the cam and slide the shaft out, file a flat spot on the shaft where the set screw sits and put it back together. The flat spot gives the screw a better area on the shaft to set against and won't allow the shaft to spin under the cam.
The second method is to remove the shaft and cam again then drill a small hole where the set screw sits so again, you have a better surface.
The third method is not one I recommend by itself but is an option if you want to keep the H&R absolutely original and that is to simply loc-tite the set scew into the cam. Yeah, keeps it from backing out but doesn't make for a better area.
Personally, I like method one and as either of the first two methods, use a bit of loc-tite on the screw too. Now you will have a flat surface so the cam can't spin on the shaft and the loc-tite will prevent the screw from backing out during use as well. See, it's an easy fix and you get the strongest trapdoor out there to boot.

This is great information. Thanks.

I've always wanted an H&R Carbine but never ran across one at the right time.

I also want a new 1886 lightweight or a Ruger #1 and or a new highwall in 45-70. Missed out on a Ruger at a small gun show. i had the money but made the circle lookiig for SW stuff, none there, went back to get the Ruger and it was gone, it was $350........ Those little dots are my tears of stupidity.......

I have my Grandfathers 1884 Rifle and have shot it.

The original Win/Rem load was designed for the Trapdoor, I think there are loads for Stronger guns like the Marlin Lever that would not be safe in the Trapdoor. Read the info on the box closely.

I also have killed some squirrels with the 1884 rifle, a 410 shot shell fits it perfectly. Need to be closer the rifling opens up the pattern.

 

[chud333]

I'll bet those little cavalry models would thump
you pretty good. How's the recoil on these?
Manageable? Painful?
I quit shooting rifles that punish the shooter more than the target.
Haha


Chuck

 

[model70hunter]

I'll bet those little cavalry models would thump
you pretty good. How's the recoil on these?
Manageable? Painful?
I quit shooting rifles that punish the shooter more than the target.
Haha


Chuck

A 405 grainer in the rifle is noticable. The 350 grain in a Marlin 45-70 is a little better due to shotgun type butt plate.

BUT! Yes but the beauty is reloading, and the Trapdoor is opens wide and can clean up easy.

I would use some light hard lead bullets, maybe even paper patched, and light black powder loads. backing the load off a little would still give you a good load.

Very important, when using reduced loads one must be careful, too big of a open chamber might cause it to detonate like a grenade. Load to book specks only. One might add cornmeal to help with volume. I've use it when fire forming rounds like 375 H&H to 416 Rem Mag.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

In Cowboy Action Shooting I have several friends that use H&R repro Trapdoor carbines. There is a big difference in the quality of H&R's below SN 5000 and those above.

On reduced loads for 45-70/ use fiber wads or cream of wheat over 50 grains of FFg, and use a 405 grain bullet. This is similar to the carbine load. Never have a gap in any black powder load.

Ivan

 

[deadin]

I own the H&R Offices model

I had a chance at one of these a number of years ago at a small local show. The guy was asking $800 with the original box and papers. That was just too rich for my blood at the time.

The amazing part was later, from a lead I got at the same show, I scored a very well worn, but original Officers Model for considerably less money.....

 

[sureshotbob]

I used to have several .45-70 rifles . One of the H&R Carbines {my favorite } I also had a few original trapdoor infantry rifles, Marlin Cowboy, Ruger #1 And a Pedrosoli rolling block copy.
My favorite one to shoot was the H&R Carbine with a 405 gr. lead bullet over a Lyman starting load of IMR 3031.

 

[Brian in Oregon]

In Cowboy Action Shooting I have several friends that use H&R repro Trapdoor carbines. There is a big difference in the quality of H&R's below SN 5000 and those above.

On reduced loads for 45-70/ use fiber wads or cream of wheat over 50 grains of FFg, and use a 405 grain bullet. This is similar to the carbine load. Never have a gap in any black powder load.

Ivan

Absolutely correct. The reason is a gap can cause a secondary explosion effect which can result in ringing the chamber, ruining it.

Also, despite from being made from modern steel, the H&R Trapdoor should be limited to pressure levels for original Trapdoors. Most reloading books will show Trapdoor safe 45-70 loads. Generally loads that have velocities similar to blackpowder should be OK. Unlike original Trapdoors, the H&R can use jacketed bullets. Jacket bullets, though safe to shoot, can accelerate wear on original bores.