Hand Ejector Mod. 1899: Questions for the experts

[Absalom]

Please take a look at these pictures of a Model 1899 .38 Spl. of anonymous origin. I'm curious about the following:
Does this look like an original finish?
Are the stocks correct for this period?
The barrel has no roll marks on either side, no caliber marks of any kind. Can this be correct?

 

[murphydog]

It's something of a mystery - the sideplate logo looks polished out but the sideplate seam looks thin and the frame edges sharp. Perhaps just the sideplate was refinished, and on the gun? Also, the stocks appear to be from the 1920 decade (the top sides are not flat).

 

[Hondo44]

I have to agree with Alan, it's a mystery. Did you look for a rework date under the left grip? I'd be surprised if it was refinished unless it was done at the factory because if it wasn't, it's well done: the pins on the left side of frame are still all domed and not polished flat, and it has nice crisp edges.
The bluing looks a little too black but that could be the photo.
Possibly if not refinished, there's a slim chance the barrel missed the roll stamping station, although that's more typical on Colts.

I just can't say with any certainty.

With the much later 1920 to 30 vintage stocks, and washed out logo, it's more likely it got a refurbishing. And then again, logos stamped like that are not unheard of.

 

[glowe]

I think the logo looks OK to me and it may be the way the picture was taken. Does the barrel have the top address and patent stampings? If so, take a pic of that area to help determine if there was a refinish.

In my opinion, the original walnut stocks should have a dished rounded top (concave). Most would say that the concave diamond walnut service stocks were available from 1904 to 1910, but I have a perfectly fitted set on a 1902 shipped example of a Model 1899. If mine are not correct, then the only stocks that were available were hard rubber. Roy states, however, that the Model 1899 came in both hard rubber and walnut???.

BTW - what is the serial number?

 

[Absalom]

The serial number is 37XX. It's reported as "all matching". I do not own this gun and am unlikely to, and so unfortunately can't check anywhere that's not visible; sideviews is all I've got.
Somehow it just looks too good to be true.

 

[murphydog]

I have seen 1899s with no barrel stampings that were thought to be factory original, so no help there.

Mike Priwer is the local expert on these and hopefully will chime in.

 

[mikepriwer]

All my 1899's have patent-date roll markings on the top of the barrel. I do have
some extra 1899 factory-new barrels that do not have the patent date roll markings.

Most of my 1899's do not have the caliber markings on the left side of the barrel.
The others have either the one-line caliber marking, or the two-line caliber marking.
None have any roll marking on the right side of the barrel.

Checkered concave non-medallion walnut grips were always available, but they
had to be special-ordered.

The grips on the gun in this thread are from the 1920 - 1930 period of time.
Just judging from the two pictures of the gun, the gun appears to be nicely
refinished. The color of the blue looks like a later finish technique, which is why
I think it has been refinished.

What is the seller asking for the gun ?

Mike Priwer

 

[tlay]

I agree that the gun has been refinished. It is not that difficult for a competant refinished to buff/sand the side plate and not have a large seam. I use flat head screws and leave the side plate on. Use a flat file wrapped with emery cloth and sand the side being careful of the lettering and logo. Most refinishers will never use a buffer on a flat surface.

 

[Absalom]

What is the seller asking for the gun ?

Mike Priwer

Well, if this were an auction, and I'm not saying that it is, because I don't want to violate any forum rules, there would be a reserve price, and it would be above $260

 

[handejector]

I see no indications of a refinish.

On the left side, I see a GOOD indicator of original finish- I see some arched flaking lines down low that follow the arch of the frame behind the trigger guard. Those arched lines match the grain lines of the steel which are imparted during the forging. That type of flaking is not uncommon for the original finish of this time period.
I'd roll the dice and buy it.
No guts, no glory.

 

[JSR III]

Personally I don't think that the gun is refinished. When the photo is enlarged there is a fair amount of glare present from a reflection of an overhead flourescent light. Due to this and the non flattened pins, I say original finish.

Missed roll marks are not uncommon with S&W handguns and if a station was down and S&W needed to get product out the door, it went out without that marking.

 

[Absalom]

The person offering this gun has several more decent revolvers for sale, and states in his description when he thinks it's refinished. So at least he seems to have reason to believe this one is the original finish.

 

[model3sw]

I would specifically ask the seller to verify that the BARREL number matches the serial number. If so, take your own chances after that, if not, pass on it.

 

[Absalom]

I would specifically ask the seller to verify that the BARREL number matches the serial number. If so, take your own chances after that, if not, pass on it.

The seller has verified that the barrel number, and interestingly also the grips, are matching the serial. Looking at some of his other sales, I suspect the reserve will prove to be out of my reach.
Thanks for everyone's input.

 

[THREEDFLYER]

Did you end up buying it??

I just received an 1899 with S/N 373X that I won on an auction recently.
Mine has a 5" barrel and is in nearly identical condition, and a blue finish.
The S/N on the frame, barrel and cylinder match and the grips look just like yours and have the S/N penciled on the right panel.
Has NO caliber marking on the barrel, just the S&W Address on top.
The S&W log on the side plate looks identical to yours, not real crisp. Mine is 100% original finish, I would say yours is the same.
A reblue would not have tight lines where the sideplate and frame edges meet.
BTW....I paid $600 for mine and I am VERY pleased!
My 2.5 cents.
Tom

 

[Absalom]

Did you end up buying it??

Hi Tom.
I think you did. From Nevada, right? He came down with the price quite a bit. Maybe I shouldn't have stopped watching. But then, some other guns caught my eye, too.
Good buy! Congrats!

 

[THREEDFLYER]

Yes, came out of Reno and was on a GunBroker auction.
I was surprised I did not have competition from anyone for it!!
Excellent seller and fast shipping, good description, VERY PLEASED!!
I did not have this particular model in my collection.....although I was hoping to find the Navy or Army version, but maybe someday!
Tom

 

[THREEDFLYER]

BTW, the logo on the sideplate is crisp, but it DID look strange in the photo, must have been the angle......kinda looked filled in, but I can attest that it is NOT a re-blue.
The grips are correct, the round tops were found on these early models according to my research. They are penciled with the S/N and fit beautifully. My guess it they are original.

 

[Göring's S&W]

threedflyer

Nice 1899! I too had that one in my watch list and I too stopped watching it. Oh well - I'm glad it went to another collector who will appreciate it. Well preserved 1899s are difficult to find today. I had no doubts the gun's finish was original. Pics are often misleading when it comes down to original finish vs reblue. Angles, lighting, glare can really make us doubt a gun's originality.

The grips are correct, the round tops were found on these early models according to my research. They are penciled with the S/N and fit beautifully. My guess it they are original.

The grips are actually not correct. As others have said, that grip style dates to 1920 to 1930. The style on your gun is known as the "convex" variety. The 1899s (unless special order) had 1 of 2 grip types, hard rubber, or the "concave" wood grips. The concave type was available until approx. 1910.

Here is a pic of what they look like on a rare 1899 32-20 target. Note the "dished" sunken top (aka "-cave" in, that is how I remember it!) vs the full round top on your grips. I realize they are numbered, but that could be that the gun had a new set of grips fit to the frame (unlikely, would require the gun to be sent back for some type of repair, and the factory refit a pair of grips between about 1920 and 1930) OR the likely scenario is someone attempted to "boost" the gun by numbering a pair of grips which fit the gun well. Either way, that grip style on your gun was not available when your gun shipped. Your grip style is original to a model 1905 4th change M&P 38 or a 1905 32-20 from the same time frame (1920 - 1930).

 

[THREEDFLYER]

photos

Here are a few photos....
If the grips are not correct, then someone has marked them in pencil with the S/N.......hmmm......
Good news is I just might have a set of the flat/concave style grips stashed away for this one.
Tom