HBWC Defense Load

[jimmyj]

In the distant past .38 caliber HBWC reversed as the bullet end and a powder charge (Bullseye ?)
This was "Supposed" to be a short range defense round without over penetration.
Does anyone recall what the powder and charge was ?

 

[robertrwalsh]

I would assume about 3.0 gr of bullseye, or a bit less. One possible problem with this is that the skirts have been known to blow off asymetrically when this is done, which does not do much for the accuracy. Why not just a basic mid-range WC load with the bullet loaded normally?

 

[k22fan]

I used the same 2.7 grains of Bullseye or whatever similar charge of another fast powder that I happened to be using with the same bullets seated right side up. Less powder space would have to have raised pressure but I never shot them in an aluminum J frame or other weak revolvers. I do not think the practice was ever written up in reloading manuals so you do it at your own risk but it sure was commonly done. My 25 yard accuracy was good with soft swaged HBWC. I never got out of round holes in the paper or any other indication that the skirts were not holding their shape.

IIRC you own a Model 28. I suggest starting out with it then going to smaller guns after evaluating pressure signs.

 

[gwpercle]

From 2"bbl. S&W J-frame
148 gr. HBWC Speer , reversed
3.5 grs. Bullseye
801 fps
bullet mushroomed to .715 " diameter (nearly 3/4 inch diameter)
This was the best load . optimum dia. mushroom with good accuracy.
Any heavier loading gave poor accuracy .

I think this was from a test in Guns Magazine .

I wouldn't feel unarmed carrying this load...it hits hard .
May not have a lot of penetration but expansion is good .
Gary

 

[andy52]

I remember doing that 35 or 40 years ago and really wasn't all that impressed with the results.
I personally think you'd be better served with a well made hollow point in the same weight class, something like this.

 

[Sistema1927]

About 40 years ago I loaded up some wadcutter bullets that Federal was marketing. They had a deep cavity with a post in the middle. They were even called Hydra-shok. I loaded up a bunch with W231, but I forget what the exact charge was. They had wicked expansion, even in my Dad's Charter Arms Undercover.

When he and my Mom quit full time RV'ing and settled down close to us about 15 years ago, he was still carrying that load in that Undercover. I did convince him to retire them for some fresh ammo.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Many years ago I down loaded a article about 38 snub nose SD ammo
and the title was a handful of Dynamite, that tested several factory ammo loads.

It is so old it would not upload today but I do still have the picture of all the bullets next to the factory box and two samples
of the bullets shot in Gel and 4G (levi) to show expansions.

The 148gr HBWC was loaded with 3.5grs of Titegroup that produced 777fps......
but the author was very disappointed in the results and there were several
125gr JHP loads that did much better in his tests.

the 148 is a minimum recoil load for handicapped shooters but the
130gr HST would be my pick for a "Minimum" low recoil SD snub nose load, if it can be handled.

 

[gwpercle]

About 40 years ago I loaded up some wadcutter bullets that Federal was marketing. They had a deep cavity with a post in the middle. They were even called Hydra-shok. I loaded up a bunch with W231, but I forget what the exact charge was. They had wicked expansion, even in my Dad's Charter Arms Undercover.

When he and my Mom quit full time RV'ing and settled down close to us about 15 years ago, he was still carrying that load in that Undercover. I did convince him to retire them for some fresh ammo.

Hydra-shok are still in production by Federal Premium and still a popular self defense round .
At least one company has put on the market a reversed HBWC type load for those who do not handload it's 38 Special +P Atomic Ammo....cool name . Ad shows 850 fps out of 2" bbl. Must be a demand for them .
Gary

 

[lrrifleman]

Federal is also releasing their 130 Micro HST which is reversed, plated HBWC from all appearances.

 

[tlawler]

Federal is also releasing their 130 Micro HST which is reversed, plated HBWC from all appearances.

I picked some up, but haven't loaded them yet. Anyone else loaded any and have a good recipe for them?

 

[Eddietruett]

I picked some up, but haven't loaded them yet. Anyone else loaded any and have a good recipe for them?

I tried them with 5gr of Universal. My chronograph got stolen along with my record book, but if I remember correctly, 5gr Universal came about as close to copying the factory Golden Saber Load and that is the load I wanted to compare the HST with. First thing I noticed is they do not keyhole at 25 yards like the old HBWC Reversed load of the past would do. They shot fairly accurate but were not as accurate as the Golden Saber factory or handloads out of my 3" Model 64, but certainly acceptable for defense. The other test I did was with gallon water jugs. Compared to the Factory Golden Saber, the expansion was about the same and the HST did expand a tad more but you had to have a micrometer to tell the difference. Penetration was not as good with the HST as the Golden Saber. The GS traveled through one more jug than the HST. Very unscientific but if you go back to the luckygunner.com test, the GS penetrated 13.09" out of a 2" gun, so my GUESS is the HST would penetrate around 10". I've been meaning to do some more playing around with them since I got about 180 left, but never go around to it. I would not feel under gunned if I had HST bullets in my carry gun and it did perform much better than the old HBWC Reverse load.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

While moving 4 years ago I found an old box of Speer 148 HBWC swaged bullets. After settling in I checked my old loading notes, then produced a couple of boxes of reversed wadcutter loads with 3.0 grain Bullseye and standard CCI primers. I consider this to be an excellent close range defensive load in .38 Special revolvers. Very modest recoil, easily controllable, minimal muzzle blast, and those soft swaged lead bullets hit like a sledge hammer. I tested these 40 years or so ago using 1-gallon milk jugs filled with water, with spectacular results.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Federal is also releasing their 130 Micro HST which is reversed, plated HBWC from all appearances.

Photos of the Federal 130 HST bullets show a crimping cannelure positioned for seating with the bullet about 1/2 way seated into the case, and a noticeable rounding of the leading edge of the bullet. These factors should provide a couple of improvements over the old practice of seating a HBWC bullet backwards; first, greater room for powder charge allowing more flexibility in loading within safe operating pressures, and second, greater ease of loading into the chambers as compared to the blunt and squared-off full wadcutter loads. The copper plating can be expected to reduce barrel fouling, as compared to bare swaged soft lead bullets.

I find the possibilities very interesting!

 

[Sistema1927]

Hydra-shok are still in production by Federal Premium and still a popular self defense round .
At least one company has put on the market a reversed HBWC type load for those who do not handload it's 38 Special +P Atomic Ammo....cool name . Ad shows 850 fps out of 2" bbl. Must be a demand for them .
Gary

Hydra-shok JHP, yes, but as far as I know they are no longer producing the Hydra-shok wadcutters.

 

[Univibe]

Dont bother. Load 158 cast swc at 800 fps.

 

[DumpStick]

Dont bother. Load 158 cast swc at 800 fps.

It's all about penetration. The projectile needs to reach the vitals to do real damage.

Standard 38 Spl loads of yesteryear were closer to 158gr at 850 fps.

 

[smoothshooter]

While moving 4 years ago I found an old box of Speer 148 HBWC swaged bullets. After settling in I checked my old loading notes, then produced a couple of boxes of reversed wadcutter loads with 3.0 grain Bullseye and standard CCI primers. I consider this to be an excellent close range defensive load in .38 Special revolvers. Very modest recoil, easily controllable, minimal muzzle blast, and those soft swaged lead bullets hit like a sledge hammer. I tested these 40 years or so ago using 1-gallon milk jugs filled with water, with spectacular results.

Back in the 1970's and 1980's when I was hunting a lot with handguns, I loaded and shot several groundhogs with the soft 148 HBWC bullets at about 650 to 800 fps. Got very good results out to 30 yards or so ( never tried them any farther on game ) with bullets loaded conventionally or base forward. When loaded base forward they usually expanded to about 3/4" in diameter, as others have said here. I also noticed that the bullets made a noticeable " whack " or " plop " when getting a good solid hit, and I almost always got good, immediate put-downs.
Over the years I have found the HBWC loads to be among the most generally useful ones in my .38's and .357's.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

In the 80's I bought a box of 146 grain Hydra-Shok all lead wadcutters. I loaded several in 38 S&W cases with the bullet at normal 146 LRB overall length, They had a minor hollow base and would expand to fill the rifling on any 38 top break I shot them in! the accuracy was fantastic, and the Hollow point opened to 5/8" very consistently, but the post caused them to pernitrate 6 to 7 inches (same as factory RN).

I have a 1896 Safety Hammerless (first latch type) in 38 S&W. It is a 3" and fits in a pants pocket very well! Should I decide to carry that revolver in the future, I'll load up some of the half box I have left of those projectiles. (I just don't see me not carrying my Model 49 (no dash).

Ivan

 

[flash60601]

About every decade this question arises.

Back in the seventies, we loaded swaged Speer HBWC, , bottom end out, over @3.5 Bullseye for 38 & 357, with about 1/4 of the bullet sticking out of the case and a modest crimp. It worked well enough, but I don't ever recall anyone actually using it in a "social purpose" case. It was accurate enough, and seemed to expand well in wet newsprint.

Nowadays, with the abundance of properly designed and tested factory slugs, I stick to Federal factory stuff, or if I load my own for 38's, I use Gold Dots.

 

[saltydog452]

70s-80s gunny Dean Grinnel & HBWC seated backward

I used the same 2.7 grains of Bullseye or whatever similar charge of another fast powder that I happened to be using with the same bullets seated right side up. Less powder space would have to have raised pressure but I never shot them in an aluminum J frame or other weak revolvers. I do not think the practice was ever written up in reloading manuals so you do it at your own risk but it sure was commonly done. My 25 yard accuracy was good with soft swaged HBWC. I never got out of round holes in the paper or any other indication that the skirts were not holding their shape.

IIRC you own a Model 28. I suggest starting out with it then going to smaller guns after evaluating pressure signs.

Waay back a gent named Dean Grinnel spilled some ink on the then popular notion of HBWC seated backward. If I remember right the 148 HBWC loaded either correctly or backward using B.E loaded to levels where recoil 'felt 'about equal to std 158 LRN. Depending on impact angle neither of the 148 HBWC so loaded would reliably penetrate an inflated automobile tire. Since the HBWC seated backward showed start of tumbling as seen on 25 yard paper. Mr. Grennel's closing comments were indifferent as to why go through the aggravation of seating those bullets backward.

The tests used back then might have had different results had ballistic gelatin been available.

Mr. Grennell briefly had a reloading bulletin that was published and mailed to his reloading club members. Myself included.

If you can locate it, Federal's Nyclad 158 SWCHP is swaged from dead soft lead, coated in Teflon, and loaded to std pressure might be one way to get the little belly guns up off their knees. Just maybe they'd reliably expand in close soft targets. For what it might matter, the 158SWC HP Nyclad is in my Bride's Cobra.

salty