Help identifying my old hand ejector Smith & Wesson 38?

[SemiDesperado]

Yesterday, I picked up an old Smith & Wesson revolver at a gunshow, which to my non expert eyes appears to be a Model 1905 Military and Police. As you can see from the markings, it's chambered in 38 special (and I think it's cool that this caliber is indicated as a US service cartridge). The serial number is 36152, marked both on the base of the grip and under the chamber (when you swing out the cylinder). I have heard that serial numbers are somewhat unhelpful for determining the age of old S&W revolvers, but I wondered if anyone more knowledgeable might be able to shed more light on what I picked up here or could point me in the right direction. Thanks in advance!

 

[rct269]

Well, you're right about one thing, it's old!

My knee jerk reaction was it's not a Model of 1905, but of 1902; so I dug out a couple of letters; and sure enough, it's a 1902 something. The first one here is #21898, and the letter calls it an M&P Second Model Target----or Model 1902. It was shipped August 8, of 1902. The next one's on the other side of yours (#59794), and they're calling it a Model of 1902 First Change Target----shipped February 26, 1906. Actually, it wasn't shipped; they just carried it out into the shop, and gave it to what appears to be a Foreman named Burton. They speculate he might have had to do with the design of the square butt.

As to more or less current value, the first one fetched $2265 during the liquidation of my collection during the three years ending a a year ago----the second one did better---$2750. These values don't have much to do with yours, given mine had more finish, and were targets.

If you want to save money on haircuts, pop the sideplate off and have a go at taking yours apart for a bath. You'll either tear your hair out, or call for help. I did the latter, and a fellow forum member who's forgotten more than most folks know about these things bailed me out.

And while serial numbers aren't always much help in figuring things out, they save the day other times.

Ralph Tremaine

I just remembered something rather shocking! You'd think you'd never forget something like this: I bought both these guns at the same time at the same place from two gentlemen sitting at a table in the gun room of an SWCA Annual Meeting---Dallas maybe------looooooooooong time back. I paid maybe $6-800----FOR THE PAIR!!!! I reckon they just didn't know any better----I damn sure didn't! The only reason I bought them was because I didn't already have some like them. I reckon things like this are where that old saying about "Too soon we get old, and too late we get smart!" came from.

 

[JP@AK]

to my non expert eyes appears to be a Model 1905 Military and Police. . . . The serial number is 36152

As Ralph pointed out, it is a Model of 1902, probably from 1903 based on the serial number. It has the common 5" barrel and what appear to be original black rubber stocks.

it's chambered in 38 special (and I think it's cool that this caliber is indicated as a US service cartridge).

Well no, the .38 Special is not being called the U.S. Service Cartridge in that barrel stamp. The official cartridge for the Army at that time was the .38 Long Colt. S&W introduced the .38 Special in 1899, and revolvers chambered for it could also shoot the .38 Long Colt. S&W stamped the early barrels for both cartridges, which is what you see here.

 

[DWalt]

The .38 Long Colt was simply the shorter and less powerful predecessor to the .38 S&W Special cartridge. Dimensionally they are the same, other than the cartridge case length. The .38 Special case was made a little longer so it could hold a little more black powder. The Colt hand ejector revolver in several variations chambered in caliber .38 Long Colt were U.S. military standard sidearms from approximately 1890 until the adoption of the Model 1911 semiauto pistol prior to WWI. The S&W .38 revolver barrels had the dual caliber stamping up to a serial number a little greater than 100000. The .38 Long Colt cartridge, aka U.S. Service cartridge, can be used in any revolver chambered for the .38 Special. A few older Colt revolvers in .38 Long Colt remained in limited U.S. military service during WWI and into the 1920s.

The.38 Special cartridge was originally designed for the use of black powder, but in short order, it was loaded using smokeless powder. Factory black powder .38 Special loads remained available into the 1930s.

 

[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. I have a Model 1902, 1st Change, serial number 39169, that shipped in January, 1904. Yours should have shipped close to that date, likely in late 1903.

 

[JP@AK]

I have a Model 1902, 1st Change, serial number 39169, that shipped in January, 1904.

Wow, Gary. That is a nice looking revolver, especially with its 6 1/2" barrel and the walnut round butt stocks.

I just don't see too many of these early M&P round butt revolvers with the walnut stocks. It seems the majority of them shipped with hard rubber stocks. All the units from that period that I own shipped with rubber, including my .32-20 5" target model that shipped to Philip Bekeart on March 15, 1904.

Thanks for showing it!

 

[SemiDesperado]

Well, you're right about one thing, it's old!

My knee jerk reaction was it's not a Model of 1905, but of 1902; so I dug out a couple of letters; and sure enough, it's a 1902 something. The first one here is #21898, and the letter calls it an M&P Second Model Target----or Model 1902. It was shipped August 8, of 1902. The next one's on the other side of yours (#59794), and they're calling it a Model of 1902 First Change Target----shipped February 26, 1906. Actually, it wasn't shipped; they just carried it out into the shop, and gave it to what appears to be a Foreman named Burton. They speculate he might have had to do with the design of the square butt.

As to more or less current value, the first one fetched $2265 during the liquidation of my collection during the three years ending a a year ago----the second one did better---$2750. These values don't have much to do with yours, given mine had more finish, and were targets.

If you want to save money on haircuts, pop the sideplate off and have a go at taking yours apart for a bath. You'll either tear your hair out, or call for help. I did the latter, and a fellow forum member who's forgotten more than most folks know about these things bailed me out.

And while serial numbers aren't always much help in figuring things out, they save the day other times.

Ralph Tremaine

I just remembered something rather shocking! You'd think you'd never forget something like this: I bought both these guns at the same time at the same place from two gentlemen sitting at a table in the gun room of an SWCA Annual Meeting---Dallas maybe------looooooooooong time back. I paid maybe $6-800----FOR THE PAIR!!!! I reckon they just didn't know any better----I damn sure didn't! The only reason I bought them was because I didn't already have some like them. I reckon things like this are where that old saying about "Too soon we get old, and too late we get smart!" came from.

Thank you for all the great information -- it sounds like I was in the ballpark but not quite on the mark. It's even older than I expected!

And yes, it has the black rubber grips which thankfully are in good shape despite the rest of the gun having pretty patchy blueing remaining. At least it seems pretty clean, though I won't really know until I take the panels off.

Do you or anyone else here have any good online/print resources to help with disassembling these guns? I know it's a scary prospect, as I've taken apart previous S&W guns and the number of small, intricate parts is pretty daunting.

I do plan on shooting the thing, and want to make sure the timing is correct. So next on my list is to find a gun smith near me that I can trust with old pieces like this. It seems pretty solid on the lockup -- there is just a tiny bit of wiggle after the hammer is cocked. Will Smith & Wesson work on old guns like this one, or only newer models?

Thanks for the comments on value, even though I didn't specifically ask for it. I purchased this gun for $300 which I'm pretty happy with given the info you all have provided! It's certainly not a pristine piece but it's great know it has a lot more potential "historical value" than I anticipated when I purchased it.

Thanks all for the fantastic information!

 

[kscharlie]

Congrats on your Model of 1902. A serial number is very helpful in determining the age of a S&W revolver. However, S&W official (and legal) records reflect only the date that a particular gun was shipped. So even if a gun was manufactured in 1929, it is possible that it did not ship until months or even years later.

Depending on one's personal preference, here is either my "Model of 1902" or "Model of 1905 1st Change". It was shipped in August of 1906 and went back to the factory for a re-finish in December of 1976. At that time, the service department stamped the 4-line address, the practice of which was soon thereafter halted by Roy Jinks.

 

[glowe]

Wow, Gary. That is a nice looking revolver, especially with its 6 1/2" barrel and the walnut round butt stocks.

I just don't see too many of these early M&P round butt revolvers with the walnut stocks. It seems the majority of them shipped with hard rubber stocks. All the units from that period that I own shipped with rubber, including my .32-20 5" target model that shipped to Philip Bekeart on March 15, 1904.

Thanks for showing it!

I agree. Most of my 1899s and 1902s have hard rubber. I have 4 walnut stocks on 1899s and only 2 1902s with walnut, some redone by our expert refinisher here on the Forum. Curtis always does a first rate job!

Here is the other early 1902, shipped on March 19, 1903 to Harry Hawes. I had no ides who that was until Roy filled me in on the details. Harry L. Hawes lived close to the company’s founder D. B. Wesson at a large 1910 built home located on 68 Washington Road in Springfield. Why does this matter? It is because D. B. Wesson was Harry’s uncle. D. B.’s wife’s maiden name was Cynthia Hawes. Cynthia was the sister of Harry’s father.

 

[rct269]

The disassembly/reassembly of these things ("pre 5 screw four screws") is all about controlling the trigger spring----which is a great fat leaf spring pinned in place on the front grip strap. From there it acts on two levers which act on the trigger. I call this a monkey motion set-up.

Dave Chicoine tells us the how to in his Antique Firearms Assenbly/Reassembly book----which I've given away---along with almost all my gun tools. I don't really remember exactly what he said, but he either wrote it wrong or I read it wrong-----and ended up breaking one of those fancy $20 cup tip punches----which Brownells replaced free for nothing in spite of me telling them it was my own damn fault ------and not the tool's.

SO------either the way Chicoine wrote it or the way the way I read it is the wrong way to do it! (As best as I recall, the way Chicoine wrote it invlolves one of his favorite tools, "reverse pliers" (to hold the trigger spring compressed)------and a hammer----and a pin punch. So you've got the reverse pliers in one hand, the hammer in the other hand---and the punch-------????!!!!------and that's when I called Mike!!

The right way to do it is to call Mike Priwer, and pay attention while he tells you about the special tool he invented. That'll go like this: Get a piece of 1//4-3/8" wood dowel rod. It's going to end up being an inch or so long, so you don't have to buy a 3' piece---those you may have/can find shorter will do. The purpose/use of this tool is to hold the COMPRESSED trigger spring COMPRESSED!!

Here's how to accomplish that: 1. Remove the strain screw (that which bears against the hammer spring). 2. Remove the hammer spring, and the hammer. 3. Your objective at this point is to make the special tool---like so: Pull the trigger as far back as it will go-----and keep it there--like with a tie wrap. (Note the trigger spring is now COMPRESSED-----ALL the way!) Fashion the special tool such that it fits (snugly) against the upper/exposed portion of the trigger spring, and the interior of the frame opposite---and stick it in that space. 4. Move the trigger all the way forward. 5. Remove the trigger AND the monkey motion levers AS AN ASSEMBLY (a two hand job)----and put it back the same way when the time comes-----AS AN ASSEMBLY!!

Now, all of this so far is my memory of what Mike told me, and mostly from what Chicoine told me in his book----so GET THE BOOK!! Absent the book and in trouble, let me know---and we'll figure it out---- or not; and then you can GET THE BOOK!! As to my acquired expertise, I've done this on exactly two guns, so the term "expertise" is a relative term!!!!! The good news is both those guns worked fine when I was finished---and I didn't break anything along the way!

"Assembly is the reverse of the foregoing." You'll find that phrase in any and ALL the books-----and it can be a big pain in the butt!!

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside, given the desire to remove the trigger spring, simply hold it compressed with something that won't mar the front of the grip strap and lift the special tool out. Then let go of whatever you're holding the spring compressed with, and remove its retaining pin---and the spring. Putting it (and the special tool back in place (a necessity come time to replace the trigger and the monkey motion levers) is one of those "piece of cake" deals.

 

[SemiDesperado]

Can you all confirm the caliber? Is my revolver in fact chambered for 38 Special, as indicated, or actually 38 Long Colt? Like I said, I plan to shoot it, so I want to make sure I know what I'm dealing with.

From the comments in this thread, it sounds like it's chambered for 38 Special but the markings indicate to the user that 38 Long Colt (the military service cartridge) can also be used.

I obviously would never shoot +P or anything crazy in an old gun like this, but I do want to know if I need to be concerned about standard modern 38 loads because I have a few boxes laying around.

 

[JP@AK]

Can you all confirm the caliber? Is my revolver in fact chambered for 38 Special, as indicated, or actually 38 Long Colt? Like I said, I plan to shoot it, so I want to make sure I know what I'm dealing with.

From the comments in this thread, it sounds like it's chambered for 38 Special but the markings indicate to the user that 38 Long Colt (the military service cartridge) can also be used.

Please go back and read my Post #3. Your revolver can be fired safely with either cartridge. That is what it was made for.

Since the .38 Long Colt will be harder to find, just use .38 Special. Those can be purchased anywhere.

 

[SemiDesperado]

Please go back and read my Post #3. Your revolver can be fired safely with either cartridge. That is what it was made for.

Since the .38 Long Colt will be harder to find, just use .38 Special. Those can be purchased anywhere.

My mistake, not sure how I missed it! Thanks for the clarification.

 

[sbrmike]

That is a neat old gun. I wouldn't mind giving you a nice profit if you ever decide to part with it.