Help identifying U.S. Propertry marked .38 Special

[robesetz]

I picked up a U.S. Property marked .38 Special tonight. I thought it was a Liberty model gun but the Serial number appears to be high and it has a 5" barrel? The frame and barrel serial number match. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.

 

[Absalom]

If it has a 5" barrel and is US PROPERTY marked, the barrel should not be marked .38 Special, but .38 S&W, if it's the original barrel, because it would be a British Service Revolver a.k.a. British Victory. The serial number could be up to the V upper-700,000's.

PS: I just looked at your pictures; your have a refinished "pre-Victory" from late 1941/early 1942 stamped for lend-lease for shipment to Britain. If it indeed says .38 Special anywhere, it has been converted post-war.

 

[robesetz]

So, somehow it didn't make it to England? If it did it would have been proofed correct?

 

[robesetz]

It says .38 Special on the barrel and the serial number under the barrel matches the frame. (Serial # 893360)

 

[robesetz]

Closeup of the barrel roll mark.

Here is a close up of the barrel caliber marking.

 

[Absalom]

Okay, put the car in reverse. That does change things. Pre-Victories in .38 Special with 5" barrels with the Victory-style stocks and utility finish (although it looks different than the finish S&W used) are uncommon, so you'll have to pardon my jumping to conclusions. But you appear to have one. This one would have been made for a US destination, although the UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamp to my knowledge was only used on lend-lease guns. So it could still be a gun with a replacement barrel that had the serial stamped later. What is the serial on the cylinder, the back of the extractor star and the inside right grip panel?

 

[Absalom]

.....
Further evidence of the Post-War Barrel change is the Odd Extractor Rod...Plus the lack of the recessed cut on the underside of the Barrel for the Barrel Extractor Knob it would have originally had!!

Excellent observation. That odd extractor rod knob completely escaped my attention.

 

[Masterpiece]

Okay, put the car in reverse. That does change things. Pre-Victories in .38 Special with 5" barrels with the Victory-style stocks and utility finish (although it looks different than the finish S&W used) are uncommon, so you'll have to pardon my jumping to conclusions. But you appear to have one. This one would have been made for a US destination, although the UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamp to my knowledge was only used on lend-lease guns. So it could still be a gun with a replacement barrel that had the serial stamped later.

robesetz,

I believe what Absalom has posted above is most likely the scenario as to how it looks in it's present condition!!

Further evidence of the Post-War Barrel change is the Odd Extractor Rod...Plus the lack of the recessed cut on the underside of the Barrel for the Barrel Extractor Knob it would have originally had!!

 

[Masterpiece]

Pre-Victories in .38 Special with 5" barrels and utility finish (although it looks different than the finish S&W used) are uncommon, so you'll have to pardon my jumping to conclusions.

You have a refinished "Pre-Victory". If it indeed says .38 Special anywhere, it has been converted post-war.

Further evidence of the Post-War Barrel change is the Odd Extractor Rod...Plus the lack of the recessed cut on the underside of the Barrel for the Barrel Extractor Knob it would have originally had!!

Absalom,

Sorry for editing My Original Post after the fact where I noted the Odd Extractor Rod!! As far as what you posted above...Regarding the uncommon finish that now exists...I agree this Revolver had a refinish to look as it does now!!

 

[JSR III]

The tip of the extractor rod does not even look correct for those whose "knob" is the same diameter as the rod.

From my observation of my .22/32 HFT collection, you have the mushroom knob, the LERK (smaller than the mushroom but larger than the rod) and then the one I mentioned above.

For my database, I refer to them as the LERK, (Large Extractor Rod Knob) ie: mushroom, MERK, (Medium Extractor Rod Knob) just larger than the rod and the SERK, (Small Extractor Rod Knob) same diameter as the rod. These are my terms and others call the medium knob the LERK.

So, after all that, the rod in the OP's photo would be a SERK in MY terms but even then it does not look right. The SERK checkering is usually around 1/4" long and unless I'm not seeing it right on my monitor, in the OP's photo, the checkering appears to be almost non existent.

 

[Absalom]

........
So, after all that, the rod in the OP's photo would be a SERK in MY terms but even then it does not look right. The SERK checkering is usually around 1/4" long and unless I'm not seeing it right on my monitor, in the OP's photo, the checkering appears to be almost non existent.

This rod tip does not in any way relate to one of the standard ejector rod knobs as described above.

In fact, there is something strange about the barrel. The Victory barrel had a single-stage cut-out in the underbarrel flat to accommodate the cylindrical large knob (generally referred to as a LERK, one size smaller than the mushroom). See the gun in the stock picture on the left, which I just lifted off Google because it shows that cut best. The OP's gun's barrel does not seem to have the flat or the cut at all, unless the photo's angle is somehow responsible for making it look like that.

 

[Art Doc]

I'm no expert but I recall reading that 1939-1941 England was so desperate for small arms they would take anything the gun companies would send them. Maybe this 5" M&P in 38 Special was built for the civilian market but was dressed for military duty and shipped to Great Britain instead?

 

[kruffe]

This one would have been made for a US destination, although the UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamp to my knowledge was only used on lend-lease guns.

No... If that was the case, then all WW2 1911A1's were lend lease...

 

[cmansguns]

The WB on the butt is Waldemar Broberg Government Inspector for Hartford Springfield area July 1, 1941 to June 16, 1942 and his stamp has been seen on revolvers up to md Nov 1942 (after he left).

His replacement was Guy H. Drewry (GHD) that is also common on Victories. Per Charlie Pates book the WB was on S&W 38's from s/n 800000 to V142000.

On the barrel length Pate lists 4, 5, and 6 inch as available (both 38 S&W & 38 Special) with the 6 inch uncommon, and the 5 inch standard AFTER April 10, 1942 so it's very possible the OP's gun may be still original, and US Property was on left top strap after May 43 and s/n V300000, before that it was United States Property.

Above is per Pates book but may help with this one.

 

[cmansguns]

Hi again Forum;
Some additional info that may help........I just spoke with a buddy of mine who is also a Garand Collector and he and I were discussing S & W Victories and he said he had forgotten all about the one his father-in-law gave him years ago. So he pulls it out of the old nightstand where it has resided for years and he gave me the following info (pictures coming over the weekend). 38 S&W Ctg on barrel (38-200), s/n V 337660, top strap U.S. Property GHD, butt, cylinder, barrel all matching, NO British Proofs anywhere, 5 inch, Black Magic finish. Known for a fact that it was not ever sent to England because his father-in-law was US Navy and departed as Captain of a Navy Vessel taking part in D-Day in late 1943. Carried this Victory to the end of the war, brought it home, set in the house ever since.

Another neat thing my buddy told me was that a couple years ago he wanted to take it to the range so went to get a box of ammo and found the only people who had some (38 S&W) was Bass Pro at $49.00 a box so declined.

Hopefully I'll get a few decent pics over the weekend and can post. Besides...any excuse to meet up with buddies and talk Garands, Colts, Smiths is just fine by me.......anytime.

 

[Masterpiece]

The OP's gun's barrel does not seem to have the flat or the cut at all, unless the photo's angle is somehow responsible for making it look like that.

Absalom,

I'm reasonably certain the OP's Barrel has the Barrel Flat...As you said...It just isn't easily noted in the Photo he posted...Maybe when he looks in on what's been posted again he'll post a Photo for us!!

 

[Absalom]

With all due respect to everyone's input, let's not lose sight of the actual facts:

1. With the pre-Victory serial and the long UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamping, the frame of this gun belongs to a Lend-lease gun. And yes, that's per Pate. The labelling of the 1911 is irrelevant here.

2. As such, a 5" barrel in .38 Special is very odd.

3. The most logical explanation is a post-LERK replacement barrel. That would explain the absence of the distinct knob cut. If it was a new replacement that was not already serial-stamped, it could easily have the same serial as the butt.

4. What we need to find out before adding any more speculation is whether the cylinder matches serial-wise and what caliber it is and was originally.

 

[robesetz]

The Cylinder, extractor and Grips are not serial numbered. The extractor rod is not checkered or knurled in any way. The barrel is marked .38 Special.
Thanks for all of the info so far.
Robert.

 

[Absalom]

Robert:

Thanks for the clarification. So the cylinder is not original to the gun either. If both .38 S&W and .38 Special rounds are at hand, it would be good to check whether it will chamber both, which would make it a converted BSR cylinder. But I would expect it to be a .38 Special cylinder; since it has no serial and was therefore likely not taken from another gun, but was a new factory part, I think your gun is a pre-Victory BSR lend-lease frame which was converted after 1947 (when the large ejector rod knobs went away) to a .38 Special gun, by replacing the .38 S&W cylinder and barrel with new .38 Special parts and then re-parkerizing the whole gun to give it a uniform finish. The gunsmith who did that added the butt serial to the new barrel.

While a few small post-war British proofs appear on the frame of ex-BSR's, most are found on the barrel and cylinder; any on the frame could have easily disappeared during refinishing. Also keep in mind that the British did not proof the guns for wartime service; the British proofs we commonly find are all post-war commercial, and BSR's in British service without those are rare, but do appear, if they made their way back to the US outside regular commercial sales channels. So no British proofs on a lend-lease frame do NOT make it a unicorn.

Nobody can completely exclude some exotic other explanation. Spend the $75 to letter the gun, and if this serial letters as a 5" .38 Special M&P, I'll refund every cent you paid for my expertise .

 

[Absalom]

Absalom,

I'm reasonably certain the OP's Barrel has the Barrel Flat...As you said...It just isn't easily noted in the Photo he posted...Maybe when he looks in on what's been posted again he'll post a Photo for us!!

To illustrate my point about the barrel, here are three photo enlargements for comparison: a pre-1947 barrel with LERK cut-out (like all Victorys had), a 1950s barrel without, and the OP's barrel.

I think it's pretty compelling to say that the OP's gun has a post-1947 barrel which therefore cannot be original to a late 1941/early 1942 frame.