Help !!! Looking for a 1903 Springfield expert !

[shooboy]

Hi guys, Looking to obtain some information about a 1903 Springfield I have my eye on. Serial number I believe is in the 400,000 range, which I think puts this at pre-WWI production. However, it is wearing a Springfield stamped barrel that says 6/19 (have to verify the exact date stamp, but I know it was 19) The barrel is near perfect inside, the gun overall is in great shape. It has a Lyman peep sight on it. Is it possible that this was used in the war and then went back to Springfield for freshening up after the war ??? I'm a novice with these, so any help would be appreciated. I'll get some pics today and maybe you guys can help me figure out what I'm lookin' at. Also looking at a 1896(?) Krag-Jorgensen that has a Lyman peep sight on it, called a Climbing Lyman I think ??? I've been told that these sights can be quite valuable. I know, lots of questions, and pictures will help. I'll be back with those later today. Thanks in advance, Shoo

 

[sceva]

Watch out for low number Springfields

Shooboy;

If you are wanting an 03 to shoot I would stay away from a "low numbered" one. There is a good bit of info out there on them and I believe the great book "Hatcher's Notebook" also covers it. There was a great article in Rifle Magazine many years ago where they tested the theory that low number Springfields could be brittle and found that several out of their sample broke after simply holding the action in one hand and givine it a sharp rap with a heavy screwdriver handle.

Do an on line search on Low Number Springfield ; lots of info.

Low number Springfield 1903 rifles

http://m1903.com/03rcvrfail/

 

[Dave from Pa]

Hello Shoo,here is some info from the CMP webpage.As stated above the low numbers are not recommended for shooting.If you want a shooter you may want to look at a 03a3,as they have better sights. The Lyman peep is not issue in most cases.The Lyman sights were put on NRA sporters and National match rifles. Pictures will help. Dave


*WARNING ON “LOW-NUMBER” SPRINGFIELDS
M1903 rifles made before February 1918 utilized receivers and bolts which were single heat-treated by a method that rendered some of them brittle and liable to fracture when fired, exposing the shooter to a risk of serious injury. It proved impossible to determine, without destructive testing, which receivers and bolts were so affected and therefore potentially dangerous.

To solve this problem, the Ordnance Department commenced double heat treatment of receivers and bolts. This was commenced at Springfield Armory at approximately serial number 800,000, and at Rock Island Arsenal at exactly serial number 285,507. All Springfields made after this change are commonly called “high number” rifles. Those Springfields made before this change are commonly called “low-number” rifles.

In view of the safety risk the Ordnance Department withdrew from active service all “low-number” Springfields. During WWII, however, the urgent need for rifles resulted in the rebuilding and reissuing of many “low-number” as well as “high-number” Springfields. The bolts from such rifles were often mixed during rebuilding, and did not necessarily remain with the original receiver.

Generally speaking, “low number” bolts can be distinguished from “high-number” bolts by the angle at which the bolt handle is bent down. All “low number” bolts have the bolt handle bent straight down, perpendicular to the axis of the bolt body. High number bolts have “swept-back” (or slightly rearward curved) bolt handles.

A few straight-bent bolts are of the double heat-treat type, but these are not easily identified, and until positively proved otherwise ANY straight-bent bolt should be assumed to be “low number”. All original swept-back bolts are definitely “high number”. In addition, any bolt marked “N.S.” (for nickel steel) can be safely regarded as “high number” if obtained directly from CMP (beware of re-marked fakes)."

 

[reddogge]

If you can find a low numbered rifle in original condition with all of its original parts you have a very desirable collector's piece. However the Lyman peep is not original issue and it is a low numbered rifle which means not a shooter so I'd steer clear of this one.

 

[2152hq]

Unless the low# '03 is all original military configuration or near enough that it could be put back cheaply enough, probably not a good investment.
As far a shooting them,,the great debate will continue as long as Low# '03s remain available.
I shoot mine, a Sedgley made sporter from the 20's built on a Low# action. But each person has to make up their own mind about it. Kind of like the Damascus barrel debate.

A '96 Krag,,same thing. The value of military rifles in their being original configuration. Any additions like the Lyman sight(s) and any holes drilled/tapped or wood cut to make room for them drops the value fast. Restoration costs are generally not worth the end result in terms of monetary return.

 

[jubela#4]

Hello Shoo,here is some info from the CMP webpage.As stated above the low numbers are not recommended for shooting.If you want a shooter you may want to look at a 03a3,as they have better sights. The Lyman peep is not issue in most cases.The Lyman sights were put on NRA sporters and National match rifles. Pictures will help. Dave


*WARNING ON “LOW-NUMBER” SPRINGFIELDS
M1903 rifles made before February 1918 utilized receivers and bolts which were single heat-treated by a method that rendered some of them brittle and liable to fracture when fired, exposing the shooter to a risk of serious injury. It proved impossible to determine, without destructive testing, which receivers and bolts were so affected and therefore potentially dangerous.

To solve this problem, the Ordnance Department commenced double heat treatment of receivers and bolts. This was commenced at Springfield Armory at approximately serial number 800,000, and at Rock Island Arsenal at exactly serial number 285,507. All Springfields made after this change are commonly called “high number” rifles. Those Springfields made before this change are commonly called “low-number” rifles.

In view of the safety risk the Ordnance Department withdrew from active service all “low-number” Springfields. During WWII, however, the urgent need for rifles resulted in the rebuilding and reissuing of many “low-number” as well as “high-number” Springfields. The bolts from such rifles were often mixed during rebuilding, and did not necessarily remain with the original receiver.

Generally speaking, “low number” bolts can be distinguished from “high-number” bolts by the angle at which the bolt handle is bent down. All “low number” bolts have the bolt handle bent straight down, perpendicular to the axis of the bolt body. High number bolts have “swept-back” (or slightly rearward curved) bolt handles.

A few straight-bent bolts are of the double heat-treat type, but these are not easily identified, and until positively proved otherwise ANY straight-bent bolt should be assumed to be “low number”. All original swept-back bolts are definitely “high number”. In addition, any bolt marked “N.S.” (for nickel steel) can be safely regarded as “high number” if obtained directly from CMP (beware of re-marked fakes)."

The CMP web page is where I would also advise you to read. Very good advice here.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Brophy's book is the "go to" book on the M1903 and is well worth it. As is Hatcher's book. IIRC Hatcher found the problem receivers were made in 1906-1907 and in 1911-1912, had as much to do with manufacturing techniques as with the content of the steel. The Army and the Marine Corps engaged in rifle practice much more frequently back then, but Hatcher lists only 15-20 cases of failed receivers and he was the investigating officer. Many M1903s are mixmasters, as are many M-1 Garands for the same reason-the Ordnance Corps inspected them and replaced parts as necessary. My first M1903 was made in September 1918 but has the "scant grip" stock from WWII.

 

[shooboy]

Thanks guys, I chceked this one out today and found it to be in pretty nice shape. Barrel was as I stated, made by Springfield 06/19, is stamped SA, has the flaming bomb proof mark, and the bore is beautifully bright and shiny. Serial number of gun is in the 241,9XX range. Has a Harvey Wheeler sling, I believe the date stamp on the sling is 1917. Stock is very nice with cartouche's behind trigger guard and on left side just above trigger. It has a Lyman Globe front sight, and a peep sight of unknown origin in the rear. Let me see if I can post some pictures, Shoo

 

[ladder13]

Whatever you do Randy, don't get rid of that rifle. Shooter or not, it's a collector, imho of course.

Edited: a collector if the receiver has not been drilled for sights, or altered permanently

 

[jag312]

On the subject of low-number Springfields, I saw a 1903 with a 4 digit serial number. Someone had so badly butchered it to make it a "sporter", that it almost made me cry. Sometimes I wonder if it would have been possible to restore it to the proper military configuration.