Help Me Diagnose A Problem

[XTrooper]

I have a former Kentucky State Police Model 1076 3rd Gen Smith autoloader. Here's the problem that's developed. With the pistol fully loaded (9 + 1), I'll take three or four rounds off and then I'll consistently get the same stoppage. The empty case will be only partially extracted from the chamber and the top round in the magazine, with no place to go, will get jammed beneath the the partially extracted empty causing the slide to lock open.

I have it on its way back to Springfield, but I'm wondering what the problem might be. Worn extractor and/or extractor spring? My guess is the extractor is for occasionally jumping off the case rim for some reason, but I'm not sure.

What do you think?

Thanks!

 

[Katy]

Mechanically, it could be a weak/worn extractor so the hook is slipping off the rim.
Shooter-wise, it could be that you are not holding the pistol firmly enough, called "limp wristing". You are allowing the whole pistol to recoil back along with the slide.
Properly done, the slide should do most of the recoiling back so that the empty shell can be yanked back and cleanly out of the chamber. Allowing the whole pistol to whip back too easily diminishes the slide's recoil force/velocity needed for reliable extraction.

 

[Centenniel]

It does sound like an extractor related issue. The extractor and spring likely need replacing. Simple fix, but it requires the correct tools and guaging.

 

[XTrooper]

Thanks for the reply, Katy.

Regarding "limp wristing," I've been shooting a LONG time , am very familiar with the phenomenon, and am certain that this was definitely not a factor in the stoppages. In fact, this is exactly what came to my mind the first time I got a FTE so I made absolutely certain I wasn't limp wristing and got the same stoppage two more times. Out of the three loaded magazines I started with, I didn't make it through a single one of them without a FTE. You're correct in that limp wristing certainly could have caused a stoppage such as this, but not in this instance.

 

[XTrooper]

It does sound like an extractor related issue. The extractor and spring likely need replacing. Simple fix, but it requires the correct tools and guaging.

Thanks for the reply.

I agree about it being a simple fix and I've done a fair amount of 'smithing in my time, but I figured I'd let Smith take care of this one which is why it's already on it's way back to Springfield. They told me they currently have a 7 to 10 day turnaround which doesn't seem too bad at all to me.

 

[bountyhunter]

Could be the extractor and it could also be the ammo: weak charge ammo or cases out of spec.

Is this steel case ammo by chance (Wolf)?

 

[Fastbolt]

Well, presuming that ammunition, shooter & maintenance (dirty chamber) related issues are eliminated, if it were a gun which I were responsible for maintaining I'd suspect either a damaged extractor, damaged/weakened extractor spring and/or a damaged/weakened recoil spring.

Replacement of the extractor generally involves fitting and requires the use of a Go/No-Go bar gauge.

Checking for the proper range of extractor spring tension requires the use of a Wagner force dial gauge calibrated low enough. Although that's just a basic bench check against the recommended tolerance spec and the real test for feeding and extraction ultimately takes place out on the firing line. For example, the recommended extractor spring tension specification for the .40 S&W/10mm guns is 4-8 lbs, but sometimes a particular gun might function better at one end of the range than the other.

Obviously replacing the recoil spring is easy enough.

S&W recommends its LE armorers replace recoil (and mag) springs in its traditional TDA/DAO metal-framed pistols either every 5 years (mags left loaded) or every 5,000 rounds in order to help receive optimal functioning from a dedicated defensive weapon.

Dunno what's wrong with yours, but I'm sure the repair center will take care of it for you.

Time to order some new mag springs, too?

 

[XTrooper]

Thanks for all the ideas, fellas.

Regarding the ammo, it was all factory Winchester 175 gr. Silvertip loads. Not exactly full power, but there's certainly nothing weak about them.

After I got the first FTE, I replaced the recoil spring with a brand-new Wolff 19# one (stock is 17#) and one of the FTE stoppages was with a brand-new magazine.

It's starting to look more and more like the extractor/extractor spring.

 

[Damn Yankee]

I will say it is a worn extractor or a weak extractor spring with some crude mixed in behind the extractor.

 

[Sargeyork]

My Experience

My recent experience with a used 5906 might help you. I bought it an fired about 120 rounds thru it and then went to a three gun match and the first shot sheared the hook part off my extractor. I had a new extractor fitted by a local gunsmith and also a new mainspring since I didn't know how many rounds the old spring had been subject to. I immediately started getting the same kind of jams you were getting with all kinds of ammo and magazines. Finally I came to a conclusion I couldn't believe and put the old mainspring back in my gun and fired 75 flawless rounds of different ammo from 3 different magaizine types. I ordered the spring from brownells and I think they either sent me the wrong spring or they got a bad lot of 5906 springs. Does anyone have a way of measuring spring srength/rating like a tool or device like a gunsmith might have as I would like to measure my old spring and the new spring to see what the difference is?

Sargeyork

 

[XTrooper]

Interesting, Sargeyork, but I don't think the mainspring is the problem in the case of my pistol. Its FTEs occurred with both the original, factory mainspring and the new Wolff mainspring which I brought to the range. After I got the first couple of stoppages, I swapped in the Wolff spring and got the same stoppages as with the factory spring.

 

[shovelwrench]

Personally,
I would replace the Mag spring, and the recoil spring(mainspring) and go from there. Before you spend money on gunsmithing and/or parts.

The fact that the problem arises only after a few rounds are out of the mag points to the magspring. After all, the next round in the mag is the only thing that holds the empty up on the breechface, and in the extractor.

 

[XTrooper]

Personally,
I would replace the Mag spring, and the recoil spring(mainspring) and go from there. Before you spend money on gunsmithing and/or parts.

The fact that the problem arises only after a few rounds are out of the mag points to the magspring. After all, the next round in the mag is the only thing that holds the empty up on the breechface, and in the extractor.

I don't know if you read all the posts in this thread, but, as already mentioned, I replaced the recoil spring at the range and used not one, not two, but three different magazines (two of them equipped with brand-new Wolff mag springs) and got the same results each time. I'm pretty certain it's not a recoil or magazine spring problem.

 

[Sargeyork]

My problem not solved

I shot in a 3 gun match Sunday thinking my handgun problem was solved but I had some intermittent problems like the ones I was having before thnking it was the new mainspring. Upon careful observation at home I have found that the NEW extractor is chipped in the bottom corner, very hard to see without magnification for me. This is unlike the first extractor failure I had in April where the entire fishook part sheared off clean and that is also why the failures are random since most of the extractor is still there. There were only 250-300 rounds fired and this extractor is TOAST, WHY?

 

[XTrooper]

I shot in a 3 gun match Sunday thinking my handgun problem was solved but I had some intermittent problems like the ones I was having before thnking it was the new mainspring. Upon careful observation at home I have found that the NEW extractor is chipped in the bottom corner, very hard to see without magnification for me. This is unlike the first extractor failure I had in April where the entire fishook part sheared off clean and that is also why the failures are random since most of the extractor is still there. There were only 250-300 rounds fired and this extractor is TOAST, WHY?

My first thought is that the extractor tension was incorrectly set, either too low or too high, or that the extractor was otherwise installed incorrectly. Read Fastbolt's post in the thread and you'll see that these extractors can't just be thrown in. Extractors do break and/or wear out, but it normally takes a lot of use before they do.
Unless you can find a S&W-trained pistolsmith locally, I'd send the pistol back to Springfield for the next extractor installation. Yeah, it's a pain and you may not see your pistol again for a month or more, but at least the repair will be done right.

 

[Damn Yankee]

Ok It has been 10 days since the last post, is it fixed yet and what was the problem?

 

[XTrooper]

Ok It has been 10 days since the last post, is it fixed yet and what was the problem?

Is it fixed yet? I only wish! They told me on Thursday it would probably be another week before they'd even have an estimate of the work ready for me.

 

[WR Moore]

The 1000 series autos initially had extractor issues. Not all, but enough. There were several tweakings of the spring/extractor before they finally got the bug fixed. My issue 1006 gave me fits with occasional FTE events. About the 3rd spring and 2nd extractor, the problem got solved and I had no further problems.

I suspect, but don't know, that the initial issues were the result of trying to use 4506 extractors with a deeper extractor cut in the slide to allow them to grip the 10 mm case head.

Probably need to buy a couple extractors and springs to have around just in case.

 

[XTrooper]

Thanks for the info, WR. I'll see about ordering a couple of spare extractors and springs tomorrow.

 

[XTrooper]

Update: Well, it's been four weeks today since the factory received my 1076 for repair. With any luck, I hope to see it within another two.

What I've found out so far is this. The pistol was inspected and evaluated by Vito on 7-6-09 and, as we suspected, it needs a new extractor (and spring) installed and tuned. Supposedly, work began on the pistol the next day (7-7-09). However, I think it very likely that the term "work began" is simply a euphemism for the fact that the pistol made it to Vito's workbench. I say this because there's just no way the installation and tuning of an extractor, including the subsequent range testing, could possibly take 2+ weeks.

I hope very much to be reporting back soon that I 1. got the pistol back and that 2. it's functioning perfectly. I've got my fingers crossed.