Some of the powders rated faster than Bullseye on this chart are a little strange. Since when is Red Dot faster than BE? What's this Alliant e3 stuff? Anybody else a little puzzled by this?
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Hodgdon Powder burn rate chart??
- Thread starter rwsmith
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ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Burn rate charts are not set in stone. They list relative burn rates. The burn rates will change when powders are tested in different cartridges.
e3 has been around for over a decade and was designed for 12 gauge shotgun target loads.
You can find any number of burn rate charts and most will be different. I think it has to do with most powders being very close in burn rates and various tests result in changing rankings. The reloaders nest has the following, with Bulleye at 10, Red Dot as 17, and e3 at 20.
1. PCL 514 (PB Clermont)
2. R-1 (Norma)
3. AP-30N (ADI)
4. PK3 (Bofors)
5. P805 (Rottwil)
6. BA 10 (Vectan)
7. N310 (Vihtavuori)
8. Titewad (Hodgdon)
9. Nitro 100 (Accurate)
10. Bullseye (Alliant)
11. Pis-3 (Nobel)
12. Solo 1000 (Accurate)
13. P801 (Rottweil)
14. S121 (Somchem)
15. Red Diamond (Scot)
16. AS (Vectan)
17. Red Dot (Alliant)
18. PCL 509 (PB Clermont)
19. PK5 (Bofors)
20. e3 (Alliant)
You can find any number of burn rate charts and most will be different. I think it has to do with most powders being very close in burn rates and various tests result in changing rankings. The reloaders nest has the following, with Bulleye at 10, Red Dot as 17, and e3 at 20.
1. PCL 514 (PB Clermont)
2. R-1 (Norma)
3. AP-30N (ADI)
4. PK3 (Bofors)
5. P805 (Rottwil)
6. BA 10 (Vectan)
7. N310 (Vihtavuori)
8. Titewad (Hodgdon)
9. Nitro 100 (Accurate)
10. Bullseye (Alliant)
11. Pis-3 (Nobel)
12. Solo 1000 (Accurate)
13. P801 (Rottweil)
14. S121 (Somchem)
15. Red Diamond (Scot)
16. AS (Vectan)
17. Red Dot (Alliant)
18. PCL 509 (PB Clermont)
19. PK5 (Bofors)
20. e3 (Alliant)
You also have to take into account that several powders are exactly the same product. The chart does not list a tie (say HP38 and Win 231) So that along with the fact that many powders although not the same are so darn close it skews the whole list one way or the other.
New powders come out and they get tested and the list gets more cluttered. I think Hodgons online does a good job of keeping up to data as best they can.
The burn rates by themselves do not mean a whole lot. Just gives a general idea of approximate fast, medium or slow.
Take Unique at #31 and Power Pistol at #33, by the numbers that sounds real close, but they are 2 totally different powders.
The Australian powder list gives a great picture of what powders are almost exactly the same (some are) There are only a few plants that make all the powders.
New powders come out and they get tested and the list gets more cluttered. I think Hodgons online does a good job of keeping up to data as best they can.
The burn rates by themselves do not mean a whole lot. Just gives a general idea of approximate fast, medium or slow.
Take Unique at #31 and Power Pistol at #33, by the numbers that sounds real close, but they are 2 totally different powders.
The Australian powder list gives a great picture of what powders are almost exactly the same (some are) There are only a few plants that make all the powders.
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Nemo288
Member
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Actually in 12 Ga. trap loads e3 has more energy than red Dot and less powder will give the same fps.
With a 7/8oz load in a Rem. STS hull with a w209 primer and
a AA12SL wad (gray) ...........
13.5gr of e3 hits 1140 fps
16.5gr of Red Dot hits 1160 fps.
I have tried e3 in my 38 loads and it does not pan out and it
even puts out white smoke in a few loads.
Later.
With a 7/8oz load in a Rem. STS hull with a w209 primer and
a AA12SL wad (gray) ...........
13.5gr of e3 hits 1140 fps
16.5gr of Red Dot hits 1160 fps.
I have tried e3 in my 38 loads and it does not pan out and it
even puts out white smoke in a few loads.
Later.
noylj
Member
Powder burn rate is test condition sensitive. For the reloader, the burn rate between two powders can change a LOT based on case volume, charge weight, and case geometry (straight-wall vs bottleneck, long skinny vs short squat), so the charts really don't mean anything.
As I remember, Bullseye is faster the Red Dot in .45 but they switch for 9x19 and .38 Spl.
As I remember, Bullseye is faster the Red Dot in .45 but they switch for 9x19 and .38 Spl.
OP
I know the tests aren't standard....
But it seem like there could and should be an SAAMI spec. for something as useful. I don't ask for much, just showing the relative positions has been good enough for me and i don't try to duplicate powder selections and loads with the burn rate chart. Well, I'll just use the charts I've got in my books that seem to be in general agreement
But it seem like there could and should be an SAAMI spec. for something as useful. I don't ask for much, just showing the relative positions has been good enough for me and i don't try to duplicate powder selections and loads with the burn rate chart. Well, I'll just use the charts I've got in my books that seem to be in general agreement
There is, sort of.
Relative burn rates are determined by burning a small charge of powder in a round steel ball. Powders do vary from lot to lot and it's not really possible to say that they will always be in the exact same line up.
As others have said, there are a lot of factors that affect actual burn rates and using guides such as these for anything other than amusement can be very risky. Just because two powders have similar burn rates doesn't mean they are suitable for the same purposes. Plus, their relative burn rate isn't always a good representation of their actual burn rate.
And after a couple conversations with the fine folks at Hodgdon, I wouldn't trust their information as being "unbiased".
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Nemo288
Member
"Burn rate" is just one of many variables that determine how a propellant burns.
QuickLoad, which is in itself just an approximation, uses 7 powder variables to calculate performance in a given cartridge (pressure vs. time).
These are supplied by the vendors and can change over time.
Things like pro or degressive factor, ratio of specific heats, progressive burn limit and a "factor b" are supposedly taken into account.
This can make 2 powders with the same "burn rate" act very differently.
Reading the various manuals and fine print (for QuickLoad and others) makes one realize that to this day
no one knows exactly what goes on in there when the powder is touched off.
The most accurate models have been developed by the Army for artillery and don't scale well to small arms.
In fact QuickLoad states that it is not that good for any cylindrical cartridge and gets worse as pressures decrease.
Sorry if I digressed a bit here.
===
Nemo
QuickLoad, which is in itself just an approximation, uses 7 powder variables to calculate performance in a given cartridge (pressure vs. time).
These are supplied by the vendors and can change over time.
Things like pro or degressive factor, ratio of specific heats, progressive burn limit and a "factor b" are supposedly taken into account.
This can make 2 powders with the same "burn rate" act very differently.
Reading the various manuals and fine print (for QuickLoad and others) makes one realize that to this day
no one knows exactly what goes on in there when the powder is touched off.
The most accurate models have been developed by the Army for artillery and don't scale well to small arms.
In fact QuickLoad states that it is not that good for any cylindrical cartridge and gets worse as pressures decrease.
Sorry if I digressed a bit here.
===
Nemo
Attachments
OP
Two powders with the same burn rate....
Not at all... good stuff.
One powder could give off more heat and volume of gas than one with the same burn rate. I think that's more about where it's at than just 'burn rate'.
Not at all... good stuff.
One powder could give off more heat and volume of gas than one with the same burn rate. I think that's more about where it's at than just 'burn rate'.
I have noticed this too and the problem with Hodgdon is that it is linear. For example, say three powders are very similar or the same under different brands, which one do you list first? What if several powders are in the same range, how do you order them?
Hodgdon lists Alliant powders in a different burn order than Alliant does - who is right?
I made up a chart similar to the ADI & Vhitavouri charts - using the Hodgdon burn numbers, however what I did was position them horizontally with each manufacturer having a column and powders were positioned by burn number so that a higher number couldn't come before a lower number in the horizontal layer. I also looked at the order the OWM said their powder was and not necessarily what Hodgdon said it was.
In this chart, some have been moved around and are slightly out of order but you get the idea. You can click the image and see the orig and then click the pop-up menu + (hover near the right top corner of the image) to get a zoomed in view.
THe yellow band is the crossover between Pistol powders (above) and Rifle powders (below) and the other color bands are generalized fast medium & slow burn groups.
The number to the left of the powder is the 2012 Hodgdon rank and blue markers are powders I have on hand.
Hodgdon lists Alliant powders in a different burn order than Alliant does - who is right?
I made up a chart similar to the ADI & Vhitavouri charts - using the Hodgdon burn numbers, however what I did was position them horizontally with each manufacturer having a column and powders were positioned by burn number so that a higher number couldn't come before a lower number in the horizontal layer. I also looked at the order the OWM said their powder was and not necessarily what Hodgdon said it was.
In this chart, some have been moved around and are slightly out of order but you get the idea. You can click the image and see the orig and then click the pop-up menu + (hover near the right top corner of the image) to get a zoomed in view.
THe yellow band is the crossover between Pistol powders (above) and Rifle powders (below) and the other color bands are generalized fast medium & slow burn groups.
The number to the left of the powder is the 2012 Hodgdon rank and blue markers are powders I have on hand.
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venomballistics
Member
noylj
Member
In the rocket industry, we use linear burn rate as one of many tests to characterize the propellant. However, that number is NOT used to compare different propellants. Smokeless is just another propellant.
