How important is .357 COAL, really? (TIC)

[MikeChandler]

Well, that was a depressing morning... I had my press setup for speer 4211 JHP, loading 357 brass at 38 spl p+ with 5.4gr Unique. Those were great loads - my most accurate yet - but I didn't have any of the bullets left.

So I flipped the seating die, and tested one of these new Laser Cast LSWC 158 gr hard cast bullets I picked up at dillon a few weeks ago. Surprise, surprise, it was seated perfectly almost to the top of the crimp groove. It crimped in the groove perfectly.

I did dial down my load (to 4.2gr), BUT I DID NOT measure my COAL. Foolish me... I figured if I am in the crimp groove, it must be correct. Besides I didn't want to go in the house one more time for the calipers.

So now.. I have a bunch of bullets with a COAL of 1.642" to 1.645". My manuals show max length of 1.590".

They chamber in both my 586 4" and 6". I haven't tried to chamber them in my Marlin. The shiny plastic bullet cases I use won't close on them however, so I've got them all in a shoe box.



I have some questions:

1. Is laser cast a reputable company? How come their nose is so long, or more to the point, why is their crimp groove so low?

2. If the bullets chamber okay, is there any real risk in firing them?

 

[venomballistics]

lets see ... you have more bullet forward which will leave more space in the case. This lowers pressure. You also dropped back your powder charge which will further lower pressure.
if they work in your guns, they will work and have a good bit of room on the gas peddle as you work them back up.

 

[Curt Blunt]

I don't think I've ever loaded to a published OAL and I've been loading for 40+ years. If you are crimped in the crimp groove and have a bit of room in the chamber in case of some bullet creep due to the recoil of heavy loads, you are good to go. In magazine fed pistols and rifles the OAL will be limited by what length will fit in the magazine and/or at what point the bullet engages the rifling.

I'm guessing they'll feed in the Marlin but if they don't, you can crimp over the forward driving band.

The first .357 Magnum was what is now called the S&W Model 27, which has a shorter cylinder than the 586 (or the 19/66 for that matter).

Lazer cast is a reputable firm with quality bullets. That said, most, if not all their offerings are bevel base. Flat base bullets are believed to obturate better and lessen the chances of leading. But if you don't have that problem then you're good to go on that, too.

Hope this helps.

 

[358156hp]

Not all revolvers have the same length cylinders. S&W 27/28, Colt Python, .357 J frames and a few others have short cylinders, relics from a bygone era and/or a compact frame size. Your only real concern here would be if the bullet nose stuck out the front of the cylinder, preventing cylinder rotation. Lever actions are a different matter though, sometimes a long bullet nose will hang up during the feeding cycle. The only thing to do is try a function test to see if your loaded ammo will cycle in it. If everything else is in line with your loads, your loads should be safe to use, providing you used accredited loading data, and did your part right. As far as the ammo box issue, MTM boxes have always worked perfectly for me. The cheap ones, Midway, Berrys, and others can be too short for use with longer nose bullets.

 

[Treeman]

If they aren't too long fro the revolvers cylinder then being over "max" length spec matters not at all. Lots of the best bullets in 38/357 are over length crimped in the groove in .357 cases. The max length was dictated by the cylinder length of the S&W N frame Pre Mod 27. Bullets that worked great in the shorter .38 special case didn't all work in the .357 and a "short" cylinder....but they still worked seated deeper and crimped over the front driving band or out on the ogive and they can work just fine in revolvers with longer cylinders crimped in the crimp groove.

 

[MikeChandler]

They wouldn't feed in the marlin - the noses got stuck in the feed ramp. That being said, they were soft shooters and *decently* accurate in the revolvers.

 

[Curt Blunt]

They wouldn't feed in the marlin - the noses got stuck in the feed ramp. That being said, they were soft shooters and *decently* accurate in the revolvers.

Try seating deeper and crimping over the front driving band.

 

[mikld]

Many carbines won't feed SWCs at just about any length. I figger the bullet designers took into consideration the amount of bullet from the crimp groove to the base of the bullet and how much space the bullet takes up in the case and how much volume is left for powder. Therefore, crimping the bullet in the crimp groove, or cannalure, is always safe, with any given safe load...

 

[David LaPell]

I know I had this issue the first time I ever loaded the old #358429 cast bullet in a .357 case for a Model 27 I owned, major disappointment. What you can do and was the solution in the old days is to load those longer bullets in a .38 Special+P case. I mark the primers with a black permanent marker to make sure they don't end up in one of my standard .38 guns.

 

[Treeman]

David, that does work but if you seat the 358429to crimp over the front band you wind up with virtually the same OAL as using 38 spl cases and can use the same charges but it will not fit into a 38 by mistake. BTW ove rteh front band was Elmer Keith's preference. Skeeter Skelton used the Thompson designed GC SWC and advocated seating that one to the rearmost crimp groove in .38 cases---his reason was cheap case availability rather than making things fit.

 

[Alk8944]

Treeman,

Read Keith's works more closely. He designed all of his bullets to be loaded to the crimp groove, with the front band out of the case to provide alignment in the cylinder throats. In "Sixgun Cartridges and Loads" he bemoans the fact that S&W and Winchester had decided on a bullet crimped over the shoulder, rather than have the front band exposed.

As an aside, Keith claims the original factory bullet for the .357 Magnum was an adaptation of his bullet, the 358429, while Phil Sharpe claims he provided the original bullets to Winchester and that the bullet eventually adopted was a modification of his design. Since he directly collaborated with Major Wesson and Winchester during cartridge developement Sharpe's claim seems to have a bit more credence.

Lyman 358429 was designed by Keith. It was originally designed in 1929 as I recall (see Sixgun Cartridges), several years before the .357 Magnum was even thought of. The bullet was designed to provide maximum case capacity by seating the bullet out to nearly the maximum length of the K and N Frame cylinders, 1 9/16" when loaded in .38 Special cases. This is why it is too long for the original N Frame cylinders. The bullet was never intended for the .357 Magnum as it did not exist! Loading the 359429 in .357 with the case crimped over the shoulder was not his preference, simply an accommodation so the bullet could be used in the cartridge.

 

[Treeman]

Alk, I did not intend to convey that the 358429 was designed as a .357 mag. bullet or that Keith preferred crimping bullets over the the front shoulder. The Keith bullet and MANY other good 38 bullets predated the introduction of the magnum. What I was saying is that Elmer put his very good bullet in 357 mag cases and crimped over the front rather than sticking them in 38 spl cases with magnum loads as a general practice....though it does get fuzzy since his 38/44 loads were essentially magnum loads in 38 cases. There is evidence that both Sharpe and Keith are telling the truth about the bullet design used in original factory loads. Sharpe's bullet was designed with George Hensley as a scaled down Keith 358429.... So it was Sharpe's bullet in the factory loads but it was truly an adaptation of Keith's bullet.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have used Laser Cast bullets before in .357 Magnum brass and I don't remember them being long. Some companies make separate bullets for the 38 and 357 and the ones made for the 38 will be long in the .357 but that's not the case with Laser Cast bullets so I'm at a loss as to why they are long. Sorry I can't help but like said above, if they fit in the revolver they will be more than safe to shoot since you are loading to .38 Special +P pressures.