How much over penetration are we talking?

[lrrifleman]

This question is being prompted, in part, due to the scarcity of hollow point self defense ammunition.

It seems as though the first reaction that almost everyone has when they hear that you are carrying hardball, is that it is a danger due to over penetration. I live in a state where hollow points fall into a gray void with respect to it's legality. I am not an ogre, and I don't get my kicks by inflicting pain and watching someone suffer.

Currently, I have a 45 and a 9 that I could carry hardball in, when I am legal to carry. When my dad was alive, and he would reflect about the effectiveness of the 45, he always painted the picture that the 45 was a fight stopper, when using hardball. (These chats were from the '60s -'70s, and were based on reflections of WWII and Korea.)

Presuming that a round of hardball did transit a "threat" , how much further could a 230gr FMJ or a 115/124gr FMJ go once it penetrates the body? Would the round retain sufficient energy to inflict catastrophic injury beyond the threat?

Please, don't jump all over me for the question, I just don't know the answer and I'd like to know!

As always, thanks in advance for your help!

 

[ContinentalOp]

The short answer is yes, both .45ACP and 9mm FMJ can overpenetrate enough to injure bystanders, and there are documented instances of this happening.

When NYPD first transitioned to 9mm semi-autos in the 90s, they used hardball ammo. After several instances of overpenetration resulting in both bystanders and officers being injured after rounds passed through people, they switched to JHP.

NEW YORK POLICE WILL START USING DEADLIER BULLETS - The New York Times

[Note: It's the New York Times...what kind of headline would you expect from them?]

.45 hardball has also caused injuries due to overpenetration. In one example, LAPD SWAT, who used 1911s loaded with .45 FMJ, responded to a hostage situation. The hostage taker was shot, and one of the rounds exited the hostage taker and wounded one of his hostages.

Massad Ayoob: The Dangers of Over-Penetrating Bullets | Gun Digest

In another case, a police officer fired a .45ACP FMJ bullet at an attacker. The bullet passed through the attacker's body and struck another officer coming to help him in the abdomen, causing a life-threatening wound.

Is Hollowpoint the Best Defensive Ammo for Concealed Carry? | Gun Digest

There are options that come to mind. Federal's EFMJ, I believe under their Guard Dog line, offer FMJ ammo that will expand and penetrate less.

If you're willing to go to .38 Special, 148gr target wadcutters are non-HP, but will penetrate sufficiently while minimizing the chance for overpenetration. They're also more likely to cut a full-caliber wound channel than FMJ, even in bigger calibers.

Now, if I were stuck with no hollowpoints, and had to use FMJ, and EFMJ wasn't available, I would use .45ACP, albeit reluctantly. While I think it still poses an overpenetration risk, I see the big, heavy, slow bullet being less likely to do so than the smaller, lighter, faster 9mm, though I have to admit the difference isn't probably going to be much. I believe they'll both penetrate about 2 feet in ballistics gel.

I can't tell you what you should or shouldn't do. Whatever your choice, be aware of the possible consequences.

Just my opinion.

 

[max]

As stated, a 9mm is more apt to over penetrate than a 45, but both might.

 

[Gamecock]

The funny thing about the NYPD change was that 83% of their shots missed the bad guys. They were worried about the few that actually hit the bad guys.

 

[bigwheelzip]

There are subsonic variants of 9mm factory loads which should lessen potential overpenetration.


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[ContinentalOp]

The funny thing about the NYPD change was that 83% of their shots missed the bad guys. They were worried about the few that actually hit the bad guys.

And yet, even if they had a 100% hit rate, they'd still have overpenetration issues if they had stuck with FMJ. I don't know why people keep bringing up missing whenever overpenetration is discussed. It's irrelevant.

 

[ContinentalOp]

There are subsonic variants of 9mm factory loads which should lessen potential overpenetration.

Interesting perspective. Haven't seen any data on that yet.

 

[WR Moore]

If you can find them, Hornaday has their Critical Duty (preferred) and Critical Defense. Federal had an expanding full metal jacket mentioned above. Your state doesn't consider any of them "hollow points" and you can carry them inside/outside the home.

As for over penetration, I recall reading about a concentration camp guard who experimented with 9 mm and found he could reliably execute 8 inmates with one round. While a despicable individual and action, he did establish a benchmark one could keep in mind.

If you just have to use hard ball in either, you should be extremely careful of the background. I doubt that citing state law prohibiting the use of better ammunition would do much for you in a legal action. Plaintiff would probably assert that you shouldn't have shot.

 

[pennzy]

I live in the country. To me the topic is over played. In fact I want as much penetration as possible. Personally I would not shoot with people standing behind them.

 

[Chino74]

9mm FMJ will over penetrate a lot farther than .45 ball will. But as said above, both will. .45 ball would be my choice if these were the only 2 options.

 

[BC38]

I would think that when in a jurisdiction that prohibits HP ammo, the next best cure for over penetration would be heavy for caliber bullets with the largest, flattest meplat that you can get to feed reliably.

 

[federali]

Hybrid Bullets

There are now bullets that behave like JHPs but are classified as JSPs because they don't have a hollow cavity. One such round is Hornady Critical Defense. Two my knowledge, they are legal in places like NJ and every bit as effective as JHPs.

Another such round is Federal Guard Dog EFMJ, again not classified as JHPs. Either round eliminates the guessing or potential risk of using FMJs.

 

[Steve912]

Interesting perspective. Haven't seen any data on that yet.

Actually, the subsonic 9mm 147 tended to not expand, while
overpenetrating in people, and underpenetrating barriers.

Kind of the worst of all worlds, all in one!

 

[federali]

Confusing Laws

In seem to recall that the 10 round California magazine limit was temporarily suspended but is on appeal with the possibility that 2nd Amendment advocates will ultimately lose the appeal.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Actually, the subsonic 9mm 147 tended to not expand, while
overpenetrating in people, and underpenetrating barriers.

Kind of the worst of all worlds, all in one!

That was the older JHP from the 90s. My understanding was that it wasn't designed for expansion, but was intended for use in suppressed pistols and submachine guns.

The current crop of 9mm 147gr JHP are all good to go as far as penetration and expansion. My defensive load of choice is 147gr HST.

However, since those early 147gr JHP didn't expand, their performance would likely mimic FMJ of the same weight, so in that light it seems like maybe 147gr FMJ would still be an overpenetrating round.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Steve912]

However, since those early 147gr JHP didn't expand, their performance would likely mimic FMJ of the same weight, so in that light it seems like maybe 147gr FMJ would still be an overpenetrating round.

Thanks for sharing.

No, because the 147s lacked the energy of faster, lighter slugs.


Thanks for sharing.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

I am one of those who became involved with firearms during the transitional period that might be divided between "the old tried and true" and "the new and improved" versions of ammunition.

Prior to the 1960's just about all ammunition offered for revolvers featured lead bullets, with the round nose being the most common form. Just about everything available for semi-auto pistols came with full metal jacket and round nose, features that facilitate the feeding cycles of such handguns. There were a few exceptions, such as the .357 magnum with pointed bullets of hardened metals that were specifically designed to increase penetration (think about the 1930's when the .357 came to be, a period of the "automobile bandits" raiding towns to rob banks and businesses, and cops trying to shoot through the big old cars of the day to get to the bad guys).

Ammunition manufacturers regularly published charts and data on their offerings, with one of the reported factors being comparisons of penetration to be expected, commonly reported as the number of 1" pine boards were penetrated in testing (9mm Luger was just about always near the top in penetration testing). In short, penetration was considered a desirable attribute for handgun ammunition.

Military development of ammunition has always focused on penetration to overcome barriers, heavy uniforms, personal equipment, etc. Again, penetration was considered to be a desirable attribute.

During the 1960's there was a great deal of development work done on handgun ammunition. One notable company was SuperVel, introducing the concept of hollow-point bullets of relatively light weight delivered at the highest possible velocities. In the decades since there has been a huge amount of research and development done in this area, and most ammo manufacturers offer at least one (sometimes several) lines of "personal defense" or "law enforcement" ammunition, all with the overall goal of maximizing terminal effectiveness (wounding capability) while minimizing dangers associated with ricochet and over-penetration of the intended target.

Some of these products have proven to be quite good. Others have been mediocre. Some have performed poorly in controlled testing. Not a single one has proven to be perfect (if that happened all further R&D would stop and no new products would appear every week or so).

I have used full metal jacket ammo in military combat. I have seen its effects, and I have been wounded by such ammunition. I have also carried expanding bullet ammunition in law enforcement and personal defense use (jacketed hollow-point, swaged lead hollow-point, and frangible types). I have seen its effects in actual shootings.

My personal preference for defensive handgun ammo is good quality expanding bullets such as the Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber, and Hornady XTP. However, I do not feel at a significant disadvantage with full metal jacket ammo, and if that is all that is available that is what I will use, and I will be glad to have it when needed.

The first objective of carrying a defensive firearm is survival. Everything else is somewhere down the list of concerns. Survival is achieved by eliminating the threat when necessary. A shot that passes through the target and continues on is a far lesser concern than the immediate and imperative objective of survival.

I am not saying that over-penetration is not a concern worthy of consideration. All I am saying is that it is, at best, a secondary concern.

These discussions (which frequently turn into heated arguments) are occasionally interesting, but the obvious seems to be the least apparent point raised by anyone.

My first priority will always be survival. Everything else can be dealt with later.

 

[Dave Lively]

If all I had and could find was FMJ I would use it without hesitation. Hollow points are both more effective and much less likely to overpenetrate but it is not like FMJ is going to go through the attacker, an innocent bystander and then circle the globe to hit you in the back of the head. Use FMJ for now and switch to hollowpoints when you can.

A lot of the emphasis on preventing over penetration comes from police shootings. They are far more likely to have to shoot at someone when there are a lot of innocent people nearby than we are as civilians. If someone is going to mug you they will try to do so when there are as few witnesses around as possible. If someone is breaking into your house in the suburbs three is much less chance of a bystander getting injured than when police have to shoot at someone on a busy street.

As others have stated by far the biggest reason bystanders get shot is because of misses, not over penetration. Unlike the police as a civilian the only valid reason to shoot at someone is self defense. Which often means shorter distances and less chance of missing.

Hollow points are clearly better for self defense and that is what I carry. Glad I bought that half case of GoldDots a couple of years ago. But I do not consider carrying FMJ reckless, particularly if that is all that is available. And while HP ammo is better not many criminals are going to have enough meth or PCP in them to laugh off getting shot with a FMJ 9mm or 45.

 

[ContinentalOp]

No, because the 147s lacked the energy of faster, lighter slugs.


Thanks for sharing.

That's not what I'm talking about. JHPs that don't expand tend to behave like FMJ. If a 147gr JHP doesn't expand, like the older 90s 147gr JHP, and they overpenetrate, then it would follow that 147gr FMJ would also tend to overpenetrate.

And FYI, I was being sincere when I thanked you for sharing your post. Since this is text, I can't be sure of your intention, but it seems like you're being insulting in using that phrase back at me. Nothing I've posted warrants that. Apologies if I'm wrong.

 

[WR Moore]

I've got a sneaking suspicion that the pine board penetration box pre-dated cartridge firearms.

With that out of the way, the bullets Federal uses/used in what they now call their "Classic" ammunition line were always decent with respect to expansion. Same with the plain Jane Remington JHPs and SJHP. They were using those in the HTP (High Terminal Performance) ammo line and the JHPs will feed in any firearm that will feed ball ammo. I'm not sure how they fared in the FBI ammo tests, but they have a track record of working in many/most real world cases.

I'm personally not that thrilled with the XTPs. Hornaday really meant it when they labeled (Xtreme Terminal Penetration) that design. We used it in a custom loaded 10 mm duty round.