How “scarce” are .38 M & P Model of 1905 4th change revolvers with round butts?

[mrcvs]

With 758,296 produced 1915 to 1942, it seems hard to believe there’s anything scarce about them at all. Described as “ scarce”, SCSW4.

I’m a sucker for stocks, pre war with the brass medallions. This one shipped in 1919. 1919 is an interesting variation for most or all Smith & Wesson revolvers as the S & W logo is absent during that immediate post WWI time frame.

 

[glowe]

Without the S&W logo, we can date the revolver to 1917 -1920. The stocks look correct and were made from 1910 - 1920. Lastly, your serial number shows 1918 or 1919 ship date from the factory so everything looks original.

Almost 100,000 revolvers were sold from 1917 to 1920, and both round-butt and square-butt guns were made. I do not know of any source to identify numbers made of each butt-frame, but even if only 25% round-butts were made, that is 25,000 so doubt that they could be considered as scarce. Round-butt revolvers were made up to WWII and continued after the war. As far as I know, it was square-butt revolvers that ultimately disappeared in the Model 10 line.

Just checked the old SWCA database and of those identified, 70% were round-butt. This is a totally random collection of guns, so probably little accuracy in that number.

 

[mrcvs]

So, from 1917 to 1920, of those produced, this being about 100,000, about 70% had the round but, very loosely?

Hardly scarce.

This one shipped May 1919.

 

[murphydog]

My subjective impression is that RB .38 M & P 4th change revolvers were produced in smaller numbers as time progressed. Fairly common into the '20s but less so in the '30s, aside from the scarce 2" guns, but even some of those were SB.

 

[alwslate]

I have one that dates to around 1923. Grips are the black hard rubber, I guess the material is, rather than wood.

 

[DWalt]

1. K-frame revolvers made by S&W after about 1915 were no longer called the Model of 1905. They were just called M&Ps by S&W, either round butt or square butt. But many persist in calling the post-1915 K-frame guns as Models of 1902 or 1905.

2. There were no round butt Model of 1905 revolvers. Prior to 1915, Model of 1902 revolvers had round butts. The Model of 1905 revolvers had square butts. Thereafter, M&Ps could be either round butt or square butt. Square butt M&Ps were far more popular. Most round butt grips were black hard rubber, but wooden round butt grips were available. I believe all factory square butt grips were wood. Possibly with some few exceptions. All I can say about the ratio of round butts to square butts is that you see far more square butt M&Ps, especially from post-WWI, than round butt M&Ps.

 

[glowe]

Walnut K frame round-butt stocks lasted until 1920 and were replaced by hard rubber. I know of no 1920s round-butt walnut stocks if the M&P line. Same thing, but opposite was standard with 1920s and 1930s square-butt stocks. They survived the 1910s and became the only option for square-butts. No hard rubber K frame square-butts were ever done by S&W.

 

[rct269]

Well now, my father-in-law bought a new, round butt, 4" M&P in 1920 (#354467)---(with checkered walnut stocks---pretty much as new) which he carried in the hip pocket of his overalls for 60+ years. It ain't pretty, but works fine---even A LOT better with a Miculek Spring Kit I stuck in it for my point and shoot practicing.

Actually, the bluing on the barrel and cylinder is pretty much unmolested. The frame/yoke, on the other hand, has turned to a blue/brown mottled finish somewhat akin to camouflage----haven't figured that out yet. Maybe it's just proof they finished these things in pieces---and these pieces didn't fare too well.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[glowe]

Ralph, did that revolver have gold medallion walnut stocks?? Transition to convex stocks took time since lots of inventory would have been manufactured in 1919. Let me know if it was not gold medallion, since I can find no references to walnut K frame convex stocks. I frames did wear convex walnut stocks well into the 1920s.

Added: I checked my 1920s catalogs to find the round-butt M&Ps were listed with walnut stocks, so I now have to find a gun with the convex walnut round butt stocks.

1923 Catalog

 

[mrcvs]

For the record, I posted to the SCSW5 suggestions thread that in the SCSW5, the round butt examples shouldn’t be described as scarce.

 

[T112-4]

One of the scarce ones. Lettered M&P (1905 fourth change) shipped 1936.

 

[mrcvs]

I should also state that these M & Ps are out of my wheelhouse. What is in my wheelhouse are the medallion stocks pre circa 1920. That’s why I bought it.

So, what’s the value of something like this, about 80% condition? Given the vast number produced, and the fact this one isn’t pristine, the value might be “not much”, but, with Bidenflation, some things of little value are surprisingly worth at least a littl more than expected.

I’m going to keep this, regardless. It’s a decent CCW.

 

[glowe]

The market is somewhat erratic for early M&Ps service revolvers, but a nice working example with Circassian walnut gold medallion stocks should be worth $350 - $400.

 

[JP@AK]

To be clear, K frame round butt hard rubber stocks were still in use for at least 6 years after WWII ended.

I believe this to be the result of two factors:
1. In the immediate postwar period (1946-1948) 2" round butt M&Ps were produced at a much lower rate than square butt revolvers of any barrel length, and only 2" units had round butts. However, the majority (by a large margin) of 2" units had the square butt during that period.
2. In the 10 years or so before WWII broke out, square butt M&Ps were far more commonly produced than round butt. Hence, there seems to have been a substantial inventory of K frame round butt hard rubber stocks in Springfield when the war started.

Some (probably most and perhaps all) of the round butt frames that were fitted with 2" barrels after the war were 1930s frames that got final assembly in the 1946-1948 period. The evidence for this is that many of them carried prewar serial numbers. This has been documented on several occasions here on the Forum and in the SWCA Journal.

 

[rct269]

Ralph, did that revolver have gold medallion walnut stocks?? Transition to convex stocks took time since lots of inventory would have been manufactured in 1919. Let me know if it was not gold medallion, since I can find no references to walnut K frame convex stocks. I frames did wear convex walnut stocks well into the 1920s.

No---no medallion-----convex walnut-----numbered to the gun in pencil.

I didn't consider this as part of my collection, so no letter. That said, I'll be happy to get a letter---and see what that has to say about the wood---want me to have a go at that?


Ralph Tremaine

As an aside (and I don't know the first thing about what's normal) but these grips carry what seems to me to be very fine checkering.

 

[Old Corp]

One that I picked up at a live auction where stuff seemed to be being sold at very high prices. Seemed almost no one was interested in this HE 4th Model RB .38, so it came home with me.

(- It's a poor pic taken with an earlier cellphone - grips are near-perfect Walnut)

 

[glowe]

No---no medallion-----convex walnut-----numbered to the gun in pencil . . .
Ralph Tremaine

I added a page from the 1923 S&W catalog in Post #9.

 

[hkcavalier]

Well...they can't be TOO rare...

 

[Alk8944]

I added a page from the 1923 S&W catalog in Post #9.

Did anyone else notice that the copy of page 11 of the catalog that glowe added states the square butt gun had the new partridge (sic) sights, while the gun pictured clearly has a half-nickle front sight? Apparently even someone in advertising didn't know the difference between PATRIDGE and the bird, the PARTRIDGE. ROFLMAO.

 

[rct269]

So---everybody's happy now?

I ask mainly because the purchase date of "Mr. Sam's" (my father-in law) M&P I put at 1920 is a matter of hearsay. I went so far as to check the letters on some of my target guns from the 20's-----and decided 1920 was--------- close enough!

Ralph Tremaine