How to date a UMC cartridge box.

[bcowern]

I am trying to date a Union Metallic Cartridge Company box with distinctive features, that I am thinking of including with a cased Model 2.

The box would date between 1867-1912, when UMC merged with Remington.

I have seen reference to lack of Savage with the list of manufacturers on the bottom label, pointing to pre-1895, but I'm not sure if this is correct. I have seen this label with Savage included in the list of manufacturers.

Another reference states round cornered boxes with the 'U' in a circle trademark starts mid-1880's. Does not say how long this was continued.

I found this reference:

"The cartridges in the box, with their raised 'U' headstamps, pin its production date down a little more precisely to between 1877 and 1878, the two years that UMC employed this headstamp. Prior to this, their rimfire cartridges were unheadstamped; after 1878 they went about seven more years without a headstamp before the impressed 'U' that we are all so familiar with came into use in 1885, and continued to be used by UMC and and their successor Remington-UMC for the next hundred years or so."

As my box is unopened, I am reluctant to check out the headstamp on the cartridges it contains.

I could find no reference when the plaid box was used.

Any insight appreciated.

Regards,
bcowern

 

[LittleAugieMo]

If it were mine I would NOT open it....you do you tho. Nice find. You mind shareing what you paid?
The cartridge collectors Assoc. Meets in St.Louis once a year. Didn't know if you were aware.

 

[Model19man]

Looks like a good one. I have no clue when it may have been new. I would cut the tape and look at the ammo inside but that is just me.

 

[Lawdwaz375]

Nice ammo OP.

Is there a a source on the web for dating/valuing vintage ammo? I have an unopened box (50 ct) 38 cal Colt Police Positive black powder, manufactured by United States Cartridge Co, Lowell Mass and I’d like some information on it.

 

[mrcvs]

DON’T open this box!!! You cut its value by at least 50%.

 

[desi2358]

I don't open sealed boxes, reduces the value quite a bit. As to production date I would suggest going to the International Ammunition Collectors forum.

 

[glowe]

Does it have BLACK POWDER on the end of the box If not, it would be before 1900. With the plaid covering, I would guess between 1890 and 1900 w/o the BP mention on the end. Very nice condition and still sealed is a rarity.

 

[AJ]

You might try here: .22 Box Identification Guide for Collectors While these are .22 boxes, the style is probably the same and the info on the box pretty much the same for you to get a date on it. HTH

 

[iby]

The box has not been opened for well over 100 years.
It would be a tragedy to open it.
My guess would be early 1900's pre 1912
Outstanding!

 

[bcowern]

Does it have BLACK POWDER on the end of the box If not, it would be before 1900. With the plaid covering, I would guess between 1890 and 1900 w/o the BP mention on the end. Very nice condition and still sealed is a rarity.

No mention of black powder anywhere.

Regards,
bcowern

 

[glowe]

No mention of black powder anywhere.

Regards,
bcowern

That makes a difference since in the very early 1900s, when UMC started loading either semi-smokeless or smokeless powder, they labeled them separately and also labeled Black Powder. I think that happened well before 1912.

 

[bcowern]

You might try here: .22 Box Identification Guide for Collectors While these are .22 boxes, the style is probably the same and the info on the box pretty much the same for you to get a date on it. HTH

Thanks for the link.

I can find no date listed for the examples that look somewhat close to my box. Perhaps I am missing the date references.

Reards,
bcowern

 

[AJ]

Thanks for the link.

I can find no date listed for the examples that look somewhat close to my box. Perhaps I am missing the date references.

Reards,
bcowern

Best I can think of in that situation is to look at the dates provided on the samples before and after and take a best guess. Also maybe do a search for a Remington/UMC collector forum. They will have a duty expert there.

 

[BMur]

Condition

That box is in amazing condition. Great find!

I would guess 1880’s. The early raised U head stamp box is unique in label and design. Notice also the early logo (trade mark) on the box in the photo attached?

Referring to UMC catalogs the U in a circle trade mark first appears in 1885. So your box dates to 1885-very early 1890’s. UMC introduced smokeless rounds in the early- mid 1890’s.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Box timeline

Earliest box I posted previously to latest smokeless.

Murph

 

[SS336]

That is quite a find, and a beautiful piece of history. In that condition and unopened I would think it’s very valuable to collectors.
I have an old box of UMC rimfire cartridges, obviously not in the condition of yours, but would someone like to take a guess on it’s age?

 

[glowe]

That is quite a find, and a beautiful piece of history. In that condition and unopened I would think it’s very valuable to collectors.
I have an old box of UMC rimfire cartridges, obviously not in the condition of yours, but would someone like to take a guess on it’s age?

Remington Arms purchased UMC in 1911, so it is after that date. No good resources are available to place a date on those post-Black Powder ammo boxes, but Lesmok was an early attempt to develop a black powder replacement by DuPont. Lesmok came out in 1911 at the same time as the merger. By the teens all labels had switched to Smokelelss designation.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Remington Arms purchased UMC in 1911, so it is after that date. No good resources are available to place a date on those post-Black Powder ammo boxes, but Lesmok was an early attempt to develop a black powder replacement by DuPont. Lesmok came out in 1911 at the same time as the merger. By the teens all labels had switched to Smokelelss designation.

Marcellus Hartley owned both Remington and UMC. Hartley part-
nered with Winchester to buy Remington in 1888 due to Rem-
ington's bankruptcy. By the mid 1990's, Hartley purchased
Winchester's half and became sole owner. Hartley already
owned UMC (He founded the Union Metallic Cartridge & Cap
Company in the 1860's). In 1902, Marcellus Hartley Died and
left all his money and assets to his grandson, Marcellus Hart-
ley Dodge, which made him one of the riches men in America.

So, you can see, Remington Arms didn't buy UMC.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[iby]

This box is circa 1915
Marked Black powder on the end

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

This box is circa 1915
Marked Black powder on the end

I have a box like this one except mine is in a lot worst condition.


Cheers!
Webb