HP-38, 231, H-110 and 296

[Alk8944]

I sent Sniper this as a PM but thought that was too much work to not advise everyone, and that it deserved a new thread.


Just so you don't get confused, all of these propellants are manufactured by General Dynamics at their Saint Johns, Florida plant. This was originally Winchester's facility but was sold to General Dynamics quite a few years ago. Winchester sold their 231 to Hodgdon's when they owned the plant, so they always have been the same, although years ago this was not common knowledge.

Now that Hodgdon's is the distributor for the Winchester brand all production goes through Hodgdon for both brands and the only difference is the packaging. You may see both brands with the same lot number on them.

As others said, the reason for apparent small differences in data in different manuals is the slight burning rate difference lot-to-lot, different cartridge cases, primers, bullets, seating depth, etc. etc. etc. used to develop the data for each manual.

All of the above remarks apply equally to H-110 and Winchester #296 also.

This information was received in a phone conversation directly with an engineer at General Dynamics a few years ago, so it is authoritative, and not just my opinion.

 

[venomballistics]

Saint Marks plant .... but you pretty much have it on target.
the equivalent list is a good bit longer, extending well into the rifle powder range.
Fun history to the plant. all these spherical powders were at one time made from reclaimed cannon powder from the Navy's battleships.
Kinda doubt that remains the case today.

 

[alwslate]

Years ago when W452AA ball powder was being made Hodgdon sold it as Trap 100. When I called a Hogdon rep to ask them about some load data the rep I talked to flat out denied that Hogdon sold any Winchester powders under their own brand name. Now we know better.

 

[rockquarry]

Years ago when W452AA ball powder was being made Hodgdon sold it as Trap 100. When I called a Hogdon rep to ask them about some load data the rep I talked to flat out denied that Hogdon sold any Winchester powders under their own brand name. Now we know better.

I don't know if they're the same or not. I never used any powder marked Trap 100. However, I did use some canisters of 452AA twenty or more years ago. The most accurate 190-200 gr. cast SWC .45 ACP loads I ever fired were charged with 452AA, but I know it hasn't been available (at least as 452AA) for quite a while. Is Trap 100 still around?

 

[venomballistics]

I don't know if they're the same or not. I never used any powder marked Trap 100. However, I did use some canisters of 452AA twenty or more years ago. The most accurate 190-200 gr. cast SWC .45 ACP loads I ever fired were charged with 452AA, but I know it hasn't been available (at least as 452AA) for quite a while. Is Trap 100 still around?

trap 100 is way back there.
The clays line replaced it long ago.
In fact, it was long gone when I started loading

 

[alwslate]

452AA was discontinued around 1988, a long time ago as was Trap 100. One of my old Hodgdon manuals has load data for both. I think if I remember correctly that it was in an older Lyman manual that I read that they were the same powder.

 

[Alk8944]

Saint Marks plant ....

All done from my memory, I was thinking they were in the same town as Greg Cote, LLC ( St Johns, FL) To be 100% correct the plant is known as

:St Marks Powder Inc - Manufacturer
7121 Coastal Hwy
Crawfordville, FL 32327


The Crawfordville address is for mailing only, Saint Marks is actually on the south property line of the factory.

 

[Sistema1927]

I have always interchanged W231 and HP38 using the same data.

I have always interchange W296 and H110 using the same data.

Never had any problems.

 

[venomballistics]

All done from my memory, I was thinking they were in the same town as Greg Cote, LLC ( St Johns, FL) To be 100% correct the plant is known as

:St Marks Powder Inc - Manufacturer
7121 Coastal Hwy
Crawfordville, FL 32327


The Crawfordville address is for mailing only, Saint Marks is actually on the south property line of the factory.

We should see if we can find an online archive of Hatcher's notebook.
The chapter on this plant and it's original purpose was one of the more memorable sections of the book. As one connects the dots, you start to see how we could keep fighting while others were running dry.
True brilliance and ingenuity

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just to add to the discussion, when Hodgdon took over the distribution of Winchester powders they finally admitted both W231 and HP-38 were the same powder.

I don't believe what I hear on the forums most times so I wrote Hodgdon and Winchester and asked both. Of course the answers came from only Hodgdon and they told me they are 1 powder. Further, I contacted St. Marks and asked them. They said now that they are no longer bound to secrecy they told me yes, one powder poured from the same spigot and different labels slapped on the bottles. (paraphrased of course) I actually saw (when powder was plentiful) bottles of W231 and HP-38 with the same lot # and manufacture date lol.

The data from years ago was different because of lot variations but more over because of different testing equipment and test conditions.

BTW, W231/HP-38 and W296/H110 aren't the only ones.
W760 = H414
W540 = HS-6
W571 = HS-7 (both now discontinued)
WAP = Silhouette
There might be others.

 

[alwslate]

My Speer # 11 Manual has data for 452AA and Trap 100 in a variety of handgun calibers. Some data varies slightly between the two, some is identical. It was printed in 1987 so I think it was late 80s when the two were discontinued. I still have about a pound and a half of 452AA. It is a great powder for std. pressure .38 spl loads.

 

[brucev]

Back in 2008 I got about 2 pounds in a 10 pound keg of 452AA from the shop of my deceased brother. Still have it. Guess I'll have to light it up in some .38 Special cases. To good a powder to waste! Sincerely. bruce.

 

[H Richard]

452AA was my .45 acp powder, 200 Gr H&G 68 bullet. The best accuracy. Shot my 472 /480 on the Police PPC match with it. I understand Win Super Target was the replacement for 452AA, and is close, but not not the same in accuracy. I use 231 for bullseye, and Super Target for action Pistol match's.

 

[minconrevo]

I loaded up and shot 3 or so big cardboard kegs of 452AA in .45 ACP back in the day. Good accurate powder that metered well and burned clean. We discovered that the stuff is inverse temperature sensitive. That is the warmer the ammo/air temp is the less velocity you will obtain out of a given charge. During the summer months the prudent shooter of the stuff would keep their loaded ammo in a portable cooler if on the range shooting a match that required a certain minimum power factor.