Hvy. bullet .38 Spec. loads?

[WyoStillhunter]

I am curious about loading cast bullets heavier than 158 gr. for .38 Special in a variety of 4" K-frames.

The purpose would be for general outdoors carry: woods loafing and rambling around in the mountains of SE Wyoming.

Anyone have experience with such a load? As stated above, my motivation is simply curiosity; 158 gr. loads probably cover any genuine "need" for my stated purpose.

 

[S&W686nut]

I load 200gr lead round nose in 38 Special for IDPA competition - 200gr is the old Police/FBI bullet of choice ... Magnus bullet company in Alabama sells pre lubed 38/357 200gr bullets for about $45 per 500.

Lee has reloading data for 200 gr lead (I use Unique powder). At 550 fps my light load is quite accurate out of both a 686 L Frame and 67 K Frame 4" - and very light recoil - fun to shoot !! There is much room in the loading data to go hotter if needed - I only need to go 525 fps to make IDPA power factor.

Hope this helps.

 

[max]

I don't think you would be happy or accomplish anything good. Stick with the 158.

 

[bmcgilvray]

Back in the early 1980s I took a small 6-point buck with an 8 3/8-inch Smith & Wesson Model 14 loaded with a Remington 200 grain lead round nose bullet over 9.5 grains of 2400. This load gave a muzzle velocity of 935 fps from the long barrel.

Hit the buck from 17 steps away and he took a few wobbly steps and collapsed. The bullet chopped through the top of his heart and was wedged sideways in an offside rib.

I once had less than a cylinder-full of factory 200 grain .38 Special ammunition and just fired it off for effect. I didn't chronograph it but it felt anemic. I think the heavyweight bullets could have utility in both .38 Special and .357 Magnum revolvers if they were carefully loaded to more robust levels than that factory 200 grain stuff.

The Remington 200 grain bullet beside a 158 grain SWC.

 

[Erich]

WyoStillhunter, I can totally relate.

Out of idle curiosity, I developed a load using a caster friend's 195-gr RNL bullet a few years back, thinking it might be fun to keep in the gun when wandering up Bear Canyon behind the house. (We only have smallish black bears here in NM, but I sometimes like to build .38 Special loadings that will perforate one if necessary. One of my favorite hiking guns is a 3" J-frame.)

The bullet up top; the other is Skip's 160-gr WC - also awesome:

I wound up using some old-time (hotter-than-SAAMI spec) data using 2400 (having tried a few other powders - Blue Dot, Unique, Power Pistol and BE - and gotten unsatisfactory results). I did not work all the way up to the maximum powder weight listed, as I found good results a bit below that. Here are some results from various guns (5950' above sea level, 60% humidity, 74°F):

Model 36 1 7/8" barrel: M 844.2/ES 35.83/SD 12.72
Det. Spl. 2 1/8" barrel: M 871.2/ES 28.29/SD13.49
Model 36-1 3" barrel: M 941.0/ES 32.50/SD 15.79
Model 15 4" barrel: M 973.2/ES 16.65/SD 6.32
Model 14-3 6" barrel: M 1030/ES 22.02/SD 9.53

I noted a couple of things of interest. The rounds all grouped at around 1" to 1.5" at 30 feet (the target guns showed much better potential than the belly guns). A great deal of 2400 did not burn and scattered all over the place. This was most evident with the snub Chiefs Special, but was somewhat evident at the bench with every gun except (for some reason) the Detective Special. When I went to retrieve my chronograph (ten feet out), I found that there were flakes of 2400 liberally sprinkled all over it - I'd not seen this before. Interestingly, this loading gives me better performance than the same bullet in a .357 Magnum case over a supposedly max magnum loading of Power Pistol.

I'll not publish the data here (a little less than Bryan's loading), but I'd be happy to tell you about it if you want to email. cheers, erich

 

[David LaPell]

I regularly carry in my 4-inch M & P a moderate load 4.2 grains of Winchester 231 powder and a 170 grain Lyman cast #358429. It works well and it is a good bullet for penetration.

 

[nicky4968]

I cast the same 195 gr rnl that erich's friend does (I don't remember the Lyman number). I load it over a mild load of Unique (not trying for any .38-44 loads; I only use those in a Model 28). It is quite accurate out of my 5" 10-5 and my 4" 15-8. Does not over-penetrate. It does, however, richochet unlike anything else.
I am beating .38-200 velocities, but not by much. Anything I hit, stays hit.

 

[Texas Star]

I cast the same 195 gr rnl that erich's friend does (I don't remember the Lyman number). I load it over a mild load of Unique (not trying for any .38-44 loads; I only use those in a Model 28). It is quite accurate out of my 5" 10-5 and my 4" 15-8. Does not over-penetrate. It does, however, richochet unlike anything else.
I am beating .38-200 velocities, but not by much. Anything I hit, stays hit.

Nicky-

Have you shot anything living with that load? What, and what ranges, etc.

Not trying to question your post; just looking for first-hand info.

Thanks,

T-Star

 

[nicky4968]

Paper. Tin cans. The ever-dangerous wood chip. One or two rattlers (very close range). Necco wafers. Animal crackers. Old abandoned automobiles. Feral dogs. (On a large dog, about 65 pounds, hit front right shoulder, did not exit other side. Effect not unlike the hammer I used in a 4-D slaughter house. Did not perform necropsy to find bullet.)
That old canard about this bullet bouncing off windshields is totally untrue.
For my own reasons, I no longer hunt (not a member of PETA). If I were hunting, I wouldn't try it on anything like a deer as the load I use would not be powerful enough for one-shot, merciful kill.
I imagine in a true .357 load out of Model 28, 27, or Colt New Service, should perform well on game. Would not recommed it for charging brown bears. For charging brown bears, I recommend you not be there at all.
The same bullet out of a .35 Remington is another story and totally beyond any expertise I have.

 

[WyoStillhunter]

Thanks for the replies, folks. I think this will be a fun project.

I have some 165 gr. LRFN from Beartooth Bullets that I have loaded in .357 M brass. They are accurate out of my 6" M28 but here in WY at 7200+ feet elevation the weather has not been conducive to chronograph testing.

I will make up some starting .38 Spec. ammo with the 165 gr. BTB bullet and get some chronograph data to guide me from that point on.

Yes, a good quality 158 gr. bullet will do my work also.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

 

[Erich]

Sounds like a fun project to start the summer.

 

[bmcgilvray]

Now I feel bad for posting the load, Erich. It is to be found in the 60s/70s editions of the Lyman manuals under the data for their 195 grain cast bullet. It is maximum.

"158 gr. loads probably cover any genuine "need" for my stated purpose."

Actually a very true statement. The 158 grain bullet traveling at 825-875 fps does an amazing job for field use on critters of many sizes. All it takes is good hits. As we all know, bad hits are next to worthless, no matter what sort of cartridge is used.

A fellow, who was on a deer lease with me once, treated his non-hunting (and now-ex) wife to a gruesome and dismaying show, trying to take a deer with a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum with a maddening succession of bad hits landed over the course of a long chase. He ultimately got the deer which was pitiful to see.

A co-worker I knew decided that his .300 Winchester Magnum wasn't enough for Texas whitetail because a badly hit deer got away from him. He embarked on building a custom .358 Norman Magnum but while this rifle was being put together he ordered up a Ruger 77 .458 Winchester Magnum. Took it deer hunting too. Popped a whitetail buck broadside, right in the middle of the body. He said that it knocked the deer down but it regained its feet and ran off. He did recover this one.

I asked him where he was going now in his search for a "deer stopper."

 

[Erich]

.577 Tyrannosaur!

Now I feel bad for making Bryan feel bad. My load was .2 less than his. Of course, both Bryan and I warn you that guns were evidently stronger in the manly times when those loads were published - the .38 Specials today can't handle them. Just ask SAAMI. I'm not sure that even a .357 Magnum revolver of today would be safe with those hairy-chested .38 Special loadings of yesterday. So . . . be forewarned! Who knows what your gun can take? Depart from modern loading data at your own risk!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Do you really consider a 158gr bullet a "Heavy bullet .38 Special load?" The .38 Special was developed with a 158gr bullet.

That said my favorite 158gr LSWC load is made with 4.0gr W231. Since it's a woods carry load the SWC is a good choice because it will penetrate and the shoulder of the SWC bullet will also cut through the body. For more velocity without pushing the pressure too high use 6.4gr HS-6 instead of W231.

If you're really looking for something heavier I have also made up some 170gr Sierra JHC bullet loads in .38 Special brass using 6.4gr HS-6. That's a +P pressure load so don't use it in a weak revolver.

 

[WyoStillhunter]

Amen to the "good hits" mantra. The other part of that equation is the abilities of the shooter.

I participate in a local (indoor) pistol league in wintertime. Over a couple of years I have learned that beyond 60 - 70 feet my vision (bifocals) begins to degrade target acquisition and my groups begin to open up.

With 75 feet as a self-imposed range limit, I figure that trajectory is almost a non-factor, hence the curiosity about a heavier bullet.

There is nothing like shooting at paper to remove one's illusions about the ability to make "good hits" regardless of the ammo being used.

 

[S&W686nut]

I did double check and my 200gr lead RN load with Unique is 3.4gr ... this within a Lee published load - max load is higher. I dont understand the reason why large bullets freak people out when it comes to the 38 Spl? I have never had any trouble shooting 170-200 gr 38 jacketed or lead reloads.

 

[lebomm]

I got very good results out of a Combat Masterpiece using the Lyman 358429 170 gr. over 5.5 gr of Unique. Powerful and accurate. YMMV

Larry

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I noted a couple of things of interest. The rounds all grouped at around 1" to 1.5" at 30 feet (the target guns showed much better potential than the belly guns). A great deal of 2400 did not burn and scattered all over the place. This was most evident with the snub Chiefs Special, but was somewhat evident at the bench with every gun except (for some reason) the Detective Special. When I went to retrieve my chronograph (ten feet out), I found that there were flakes of 2400 liberally sprinkled all over it - I'd not seen this before. Interestingly, this loading gives me better performance than the same bullet in a .357 Magnum case over a supposedly max magnum loading of Power Pistol.

You know you have to try that bullet over HS-6, right?

BTW, did I ever mention I like HS-6 just a little???

 

[David Sinko]

I have loaded 180 gr. cast bullets to about 850 FPS using 2400 and experienced no high pressure indications in my 2" Model 64. It is a very accurate and consistent load. Point of impact is not unreasonably high out to 25 yards. Not bad, considering much of the factory loaded 125 gr. +P stuff doesn't go this fast.

Dave Sinko

 

[Erich]

Tony, I was wrong before: the .357 195-grain loading that I used was HS-6. It was outpowered by 2400 in the .38 case (old data).