I have a wild theory on hydrostatic shock....

[rwsmith]

I've read that some center of mass shots can cause brain damage and usually a quick stop. That's far from universal, as someone can sustain the same shot another day and not have such damage. The point being that the effect is completely unpredictable and can't be counted on in an SD situation.

We look at variables like velocity, penetration, type of bullet, wound location, etc, but we haven't thought about the physical state of the body at the moment the bullet strikes.

Ok, now for the wild theory. As the heart beats, the blood pressure fluctuates, which is the difference between the systolic and diastolic pressure. A typical blood pressure reading could be for example, 120/80 mm/Hg". The systolic is half again as high as the diastolic. Since we are susceptible to blood vessel ruptures, especially in the brain, is it possible that a bullet hit at the time of maximum pressure could be more damaging to the body/brain than a hit during the time of minimum pressure? We know that a rifle can generate enough energy to cause this effect. Can a pistol shot cause similar damage if it hits at the time of maximum blood pressure?

 

[RGVshooter]

I don't know. why don't you strap on a sphygmomanometer and then go rob a police station... hahahah

 

[ExcitableBoy]

Your theory sounds quite plausible, if it has not already been established by post mortems. I couldn't say if the difference in systolic or diastolic would have that much effect, but I think it certainly would if there was a good hit on the upper aorta or the superior vena cava, not to mention the main pump itself.

Putting a bullet with some horsepower behind it into a full soda bottle is an easy way to view the results of hydrostatic shock. Maybe a pressure gauge attached to the screw-top with a length of hose to verify serious spikes in pressure?

Now, that's something I never saw Mr. Wizard do!

 

[vipermd]

Well I wrote a page about hemodynamics, then decided to simply say that we have a MAP mean arterial pressure at all times. A bullet at handgun speed ~ 1000 fps, can not create "Hydrostatic Shock " whether you hit during Systole or Diastole since there is not enough of a pressure difference, even for 200-300 milliseconds. Be Safe,

 

[BigBoy99]

There haven't been too many volunteers to test the theory!

 

[Watchdog]

Ok, now for the wild theory...is it possible that a bullet hit at the time of maximum pressure could be more damaging to the body/brain than a hit during the time of minimum pressure?

Well, here's my two-part counter wild theory.

Part 1: If you're hit with a 230-grain JHP traveling at 900fps, it ain't gonna matter a hoot in Hell what your blood pressure is at the moment of impact.

Part 2: Depending on where you're hit with the aforementioned bullet, your blood pressure will drop to zero in one or two heartbeats.

 

[Rule3]

But what is the blood pressure of a Bear?

A big arse bullet(say a 230 gr or highr) hitting a person it is not gonna matter what his BP was!

 

[WR Moore]

There's a Dr (Matt/Mark?) Courtney who's done extensive work on this theory. I can't follow his math and it's been years since I read some of it. That said, he's got a complex theory involving change in bullet diameter and velocity over distance and time. If your ammo falls into a certain parameter range, it should deliver improved ability to rapidly incapacitate. I can't recall if temporary/permanent cavity figures into this or if that's an artifact of the bullet performance.

That part appears logical. His theories about pressure waves in the blood vessels and their affect on the brain appears logical on the surface-and very much unproven, but I'm still banking on shot placement rather than voodoo.

 

[Rpg]

Hydrostatic shock theories have popped up periodically in the years I’ve been reading hunting and shooting literature beginning in the 1950’s.

Generally, hydrostatic shock has been associated with high velocity rifles. For example, Jack O’Connor’s explained the 270’s performance by involking hydrostatic shock.

The debates about the desirablity of large caliber vs small caliber for hunting often centered on hydrostatic shock.

As a general rule, advocates of small caliber rounds focused on the hydrostatic shock generated by 3,000+ fps rounds.

Handgun rounds simply don’t achieve the velocities necessary to produce enough hydrostatic shock to matter.

Ultimately, it’s the direct damage to vital organs caused by the projectile that matters: gotta hit what you aim at and penetrate deeply enough to reach those vital organs.

Invoking hydrostatic shock as a factor in handgun effectiveness is a fool’s errand.

 

[michpatriot]

Carbonated pressure

I could see that being a factor...when I shoot soda bottles that are shook up the damage is much more pronounced and violent compared to those without the pressure from shaking them beforehand. I also wonder about if the valves in veins or arteries at the time of impact are open or closed being a factor. These valve are all over the body, I don't know if valve is a proper term but you can see the effect if you rub a vein in your hand going toward your fingertips and hold pressure on the vein as you stop the rub, the vein stays disappeared until you release the pressure. Maybe these valves are stronger in different people.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

My theory is that that driving at a certain speed between two points you will cover the distance faster traveling east to west than you would west to east due to the rotational movement of the earth. It has been proven time ant time again as it is always faster going from Destin to my house than going from my house to Destin.

 

[Texas Star]

My theory is that that driving at a certain speed between two points you will cover the distance faster traveling east to west than you would west to east due to the rotational movement of the earth. It has been proven time ant time again as it is always faster going from Destin to my house than going from my house to Destin.

Is Destin where you work?

 

[Watchdog]

My theory is that that driving at a certain speed between two points you will cover the distance faster traveling east to west than you would west to east due to the rotational movement of the earth. It has been proven time ant time again as it is always faster going from Destin to my house than going from my house to Destin.

Well, where does that leave me when I'm driving south to north? If I'm driving from Atlanta to Charlotte, will I use more gas to get there since I'm technically driving uphill due to the earth's curvature, thereby putting more strain on my car's engine?

 

[vipermd]

Well, where does that leave me when I'm driving south to north? If I'm driving from Atlanta to Charlotte, will I use more gas to get there since I'm technically driving uphill due to the earth's curvature, thereby putting more strain on my car's engine?

You should not have a problem since the distance from Atlanta to Charlotte is not even 1 degree in regards to 360 degree curvature of the earth, so you would not really be going uphill or down, enough to make a difference. But this may change based on temperature, since we have more winter than summer, and the cold slows down molecular activity, we may even gain energy from sliding on the ice, with the greatest effect being on Sunday evening when we have the least traffic so the ice stays cool. Be Safe,

 

[Leonard]

Full penetration and a big hole aka Elmer Keith, I have never bought the hydra-static shock theory. Did a lot of major culling in the 80's with a variety of calibers bigger is always better and of course nothing trumps shot placement. Bullet construction needs to be up to the task.

 

[DWalt]

1. Shot Placement
2. Penetration

Everything else is secondary.

 

[snuffy51]

I take little white pills, not big fat bullets for my blood pressure.

 

[rwsmith]

I'll have video it.....

I don't know. why don't you strap on a sphygmomanometer and then go rob a police station... hahahah

I'll have to video it or have somebody watch it while I get shot,

 

[rwsmith]

Now that's.....

Your theory sounds quite plausible, if it has not already been established by post mortems. I couldn't say if the difference in systolic or diastolic would have that much effect, but I think it certainly would if there was a good hit on the upper aorta or the superior vena cava, not to mention the main pump itself.

Putting a bullet with some horsepower behind it into a full soda bottle is an easy way to view the results of hydrostatic shock. Maybe a pressure gauge attached to the screw-top with a length of hose to verify serious spikes in pressure?

Now, that's something I never saw Mr. Wizard do!

Now THAT'S a good idea, but I think I'll put a 1/2" tube about a foot above the bottle then put on the pressure gage to simulate the blood vessels going to the brain.

 

[JayFramer]

No.

Hydrostatic shock is a myth.