Ian the .45 ACP inherently more accurate than the 9mm?

[Kiwi cop]

This is something I have been thinking about lately.

My first 9mm was an Italian CZ75 copy. It shot “shotgun pattern” groups with just about everything except 100 gn lead RN bullets at around 1275fps. When those bullets became unavailable I tried remanufactured 124 gn loads and everything I could get my hands on with 124 and 125gn plated, jacekted and lead rounds.

Okay the pistol needed an action job but even now 8” plate accuracy at 25 meters using a carbine chassis and red dot is about the best it will do.

My Kimber Stainless II target 1911 is better. I can keep all rounds in the A zone on an IPSC target at 15 meters if I do my bit on the end. At 25-30 meters it is okay for competition where 65-75% A zone hits are achieved. (I will admit it is currently wearing a ghost ring rear sight for quick close in (10-15 meter) shooting. It may do better at distance if I put the factory rear sight blade back on).

A much more (2 1/2 times) expensive competition gun I shot last year was slightly, but not that much, better in my hands using the ammunition it was sighted in for

As for my duty G17, if I can keep all of my rounds inside a 10” X 12” zone in qualification I am happy.

My .45 ACP guns are another matter. With my old Brazilian Springfield Armoury 1911 I could, after practice, hit a steel plate 3 out of 5 times. With a Colt Series 70 I borrowed during a competition I hit two 8” plates at 38 meters and another at 42 meters with 6 rounds, despite the guns owner saying it was sighted in for 230 gn loads and not my 200 gn ones.

Last week I set up the stages for an IPSC Level II event where I had installed a triple clamshell. (For those not familiar with the clamshell, shooting a pepper popper activated the rear “shoot” targets which take around 1 second to rise from flat to verticle. As soon as the rear targets are verticle the front “no shoot” targets start to rise. When the no shoots are fully verticle there is about 4” of the “shoot” target visible above the “no shoot”).

The next day I set up a no shoot covering the shoot target on a stand and, offhand at 15 meters, aiming half way up the portion of shoot target visible, fired 5 rounds from my new Tanfoglio Witness 1911 .45 Custom. The result was a clean A, a C, a second A that just clipped but did not break the scoring perforation on the no shoot and two hits in the no shoot. (It was the first time I had shot this array with the Witness).

On checking I found that I had the no shoot too high (less than 3” of the shoot target behind it showing). Adjusting the no shoot target correctly and raising my POA to the top of the shoot target I fired the group below 3 A’s and 2 C’s.

The last time I tried this with my Kimber the results were similar to my first result with 2 in the “no shoot”.

I know that with different guns and different loads grouping may never be the same. Add in different shooters and the issues increase. But is it coincidence that I can shoot different .45 1911’s much better than I can shoot 9mm models?

Or is the .45 inherently more accurate than the 9mm?

 

[boatbum101]

It is easier to get a 45acp to shoot accurately . 9mm for so many reasons is an real PITA to get accuracy from . Much has to do with guns barrel , chamber & twist rate . Consistant lockup etc . Standards for chamber dimensions , bore & twist rate make the 45 much easier to work with . The fact that one can also shoot a reduced load with great accuracy from a well fitted gun & even with lead bullets . 9mm forget lead if you shoot past 25m , new or 1X cases only , etc etc . 9mm twist much more critical as to bullet weight / configuration . COAL is also critical . Like I said 9mm is a royal PITA .

 

[6string]

This inherent accuracy talk in regards to the 9mm vs the 45 ACP is pure myth.
The big factor is simply tolerances. The 9mm is a truly international cartridge with a history that just passed the 110 year mark. It has further been complicated by existing in two different systems of measurement, the Imperial system and the Metric system. Arms and munition standards have suffered as a result.
Once you establish a system or approach based on tight tolerances and a unified system of measure, ie: if you are a handloader bent on precision, the 9mm comes into it's own.
In the world of Bullseye, specifically service pistol competition, the 9mm is proving to be a 1" or less capable cartridge out of match grade pistols at the 50 yd line, given machine rest tests.
That slightly exceeds conventional match grade performance with the 45 ACP, despite the latter having a longer track record of testing, at least here in the USA.

But, take an old DWM Artillery Luger, (or Swiss made P210!!), build ammo to match the bore and chamber, and you'd be amazed what it is capable of out to at least 100 meters!

Jim

PS: funny thing, people said the same thing about the 45 Colt, when the only thing you could get were old and new Colts, with tolerances all over the map. And, this was made worse by reloading supplies, tools, and ammo that were made to equally uninformed standards.

 

[STCM(SW)]

Where's the popcorn?
The old 9mm verse .45....
I'll take the .45 in Colt or ACP over the 9 mm even though I have a Browning HP that is great.
Oh well, we have to have something to BS about.....

 

[Nevada Ed]

My question is.............

if you had a 5" Colt 1911 in 45 and 9mm...........
which would shoot better?

I shot many a Colt .45 back in the 70's when I was in the CB's
but not all were tack drivers.

Lots of "Things" can make a weapon a shooter or just go bang.
I swapped barrels and parts on weapons to see if they did better
and "Fit" can make a difference in some weapons per tension or pressures applied.

Even though these weapons were well used, lock up and a good barrel
made a big difference in a semi-tight vs a sloppy pistol.

One final question.......
With the 45 ACP bullets being fired at sub-sonic speeds vs the
9mm having to break the sound barrier on each shot, does this
alter accuracy?

later.

 

[Frank46]

Only have 3 9mm's. One is a Beretta 92FS and it does not shoot well. Got curious and slugged the barrel to find out what the interior dimensions were. Was I ever suprised to find out that the barrel slugged out at .357. So standard .355-.356 diameter bullets do not shoot well in a .357 barrel. So for grins and giggles I bought some Remington bulk buy .357 125 grain bullets and darned if they shot way better than anything that I had previously tried. The other 9mm is an old Sig P6 made in West Germany and evidently they kept good tolerances. That P6 has shot Win white box 115 grain fmj's, 124 grain Swiss and the Federal 124 HST JHP +P ammo to my complete satisfaction. The last 9mm is an Israeli FN high Power and that one has not been shot to date. It is a MKIII with the higher rear and front sight so for tired eyes should do ok. My 45acp is a Springfield Armory NM framed one with all the bells and whistles. Knowlin barrel,good trigger,adjustable sights. 230 grain hard cast with 4.5 grains WST, mixed brass and does better for me than any 9mm will ever do. Frank

 

[Pisgah]

Or is the .45 inherently more accurate than the 9mm?

No. Next question.

 

[rwsmith]

I think that the 1911s design.......

...lends itself to changing out parts to match tolerances along with trigger work. There are about a zillion options for replacement parts. Hi Powers probably fall nearly into the same category The same can be done with a 9mm, but it's harder to get parts for the plethora of 9mm designs unless you have an unlimited budget access to a lot of parts.

 

[Ribwizzard]

Lost me when you said you couldn't hit good with a g17, one of the best out of the box handguns ever built that will shoot whatever factory ammo you feed them.

 

[stansdds]

This is another age old debate within the firearms community. I was indoctrinated with the concept that the 9x19 was in every way imaginable far inferior to the 45 ACP and that includes accuracy. The truth of the matter is that accuracy is a function of the specific firearm, the ammo for that firearm, the skills of the shooter with that firearms, and ambient weather conditions.

After decades of experience with both, I do not feel that one is any more inherently accurate than the other.

Now, is it easier to obtain better accuracy with a particular caliber? Yes. I have found that larger calibers and larger case capacity seems to make it easier to load more accurate ammo.

 

[THEmodelof1989]

El oh el.

I wonder if anyone will get anything out of this caliber baiting thread. Hurry, (insert favorite caliber here) fans, you're not going to want to miss this opportunity to grab you pitchforks and torches.

 

[Duckford]

In terms of general reloading, I think the big advantage of 45 ACP is that it works very well at low pressure and will still cycle many auto loaders at reduced loads. To the average shooter with the average gun this means that 45 ACP loads have a lot of comfortable leeway, there is a greater chance your average pistol will have more feeding problems with a SWC because of feed ramp than not enough power to cycle the action. If you need to cool off a load in an attempt to accurize it, good chance it will still work just great in a regular gun not adapted to it, anything out of the box.

For cheap accuracy in a standard non customized gun especially, seems like a lead bullet and a small charge of fast burning powder at low pressure is a surefire way of attaining reasonable accuracy for any gun. Better accuracy out of a customized gun with even more advanced load working is another story, but for Joe Blow and his combat revolver or not super maxed handgun this old notion works well. Bullseye and SWC's in 38 Special may not beat someone with a $10,000 budget customized 9mm Luger and carefully selected handload, but the old 38 standby will do pretty good out of any revolver or carbine you slap it into.

Same with 45 ACP. You can make a general accuracy round out of lead bullets and Bullseye and they will do "OK" in everything, from combat 1911's to revolves to carbine. Its "inherently" more accurate in the sense handloaders can make non specific rounds that will work in anything. My Thompson likes everything I give it, 9mm carbines seem to be very picky in what they like. 45 tends to eat more things and do OK with them, 45 general lead loads can be accurate in anything. 9mm just seems to be more finicky. Get away from accurized guns and top end I would say the statement has some theoretical validity.

 

[Sevens]

Why the thread poopers? If you don't like a topic, there are literally thousands of others.

I can shoot my finest .45 pistols more accurately and more consistently then I can shoot my finest 9mm pistols. I believe that the pressure of the cartridge must be a part of it, the 9mm runs about twice the pressure. I still love my 9mm target guns, but if it was a showdown for money, I'd choose a .45 from my safe.

I've also heard from plenty of old time shooters that the larger the hole you punch in the target, the closer your shot will be to the higher scoring ring. If you shoot all X's all the time, then a .177 pellet is good enough. But if you shoot an 8 that is awfully close to a 9, a big .452" hole can cut the 9 ring where a .356" hole may not.

That doesn't answer any question about mechanical accuracy, but it certainly can lead to a higher score.

 

[mike campbell]

....
Or is the .45 inherently more accurate than the 9mm?

Nope. Ten shots in less than 2 inches @ 100 yards is doable with either. Someone's individual ability to shoot one better than the other has no bearing on "inherent" accuracy. A good man knows his limitations.

 

[sipowicz]

My cannon is more accurate than both since it takes out the x ring along with the entire target.