Identify my pistol

[NavyChief1]

Howdy!

I have a 38 S.W. Special CTG pistol. Serial Number 433XXX. It has four screws on the face plate and one screw in front of the trigger guard. The S&W logo is on the left side, and there is no model number on the yoke. As you can see, it has a nickel finish and mother-of-pearl handles. I would like to know the approximate year it was made and the model number, if possible.

I have added a photo, and I hope the information I provided helps identify this weapon. It was my grandfather's; he passed it to my father, who passed it to me when he passed away. I appreciate any assistance you can provide.

 

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum.

You have a .38 Military & Police. Model numbers weren't assigned by S&W until 1957 and model marked Smiths didn't start appearing until 1958.

Please post a picture of the right side.

 

[DWalt]

Yours would be a .38 Military and Police (square butt) model from the early 1920s. There is no model number. The MOP grips are not original, the plating may or may not be. Yours should have a "MADE IN U.S.A." stamp on the right front of the frame, that started at around SN 406xxx in 1922. Yours probably shipped in late 1922 to early 1923. Similar revolvers made during the 1920s are fairly common items and have no particular scarcity value premium.

 

[rct269]

While S&W didn't ship in serial number order, it's pretty much the only game in town when it comes to SWAG's as to age/shipping dates. Then too, this particular model was their most produced product, so it's reasonable to suppose they didn't hang around too long after being made.

That said, here are a couple of numbers and shipping dates to help with your guesstimates.

The good news is NOBODY can say you're wrong!

#404219 shipped September 9, 1922

#594161 shipped August 23, 1928

With any luck at all, someone will be along with some numbers which will enable you to get a little closer with this game we play.

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside, the S&W Historical Foundation will provide a letter on your gun giving you the background of the model, to whom it was shipped and almost always the location, and the exact date of the shipment. The cost is $100.

 

[DWalt]

Very rarely will a letter give you the name of the first owner. It usually will tell you the exact date of shipment and to where it first shipped. As S&W generally did not sell directly to individual customers, that will nearly always be to some S&W distributor or possibly directly to a hardware or sporting goods store. That information may or may not be worth $100 to you.

 

[rct269]

Everything DWalt told you is accurate---most of the time.

Then again, every so often, an exception pops up.

This time it was a gun in the same serial number series as yours (682435) that was shipped to a widely known, even famous individual in the firearms world. That fact served to increase the value of this particular item to just a tad under five figures. You already know that was not the case with your gun, but yours is likely just as rare by virtue of the fact it now lives with the third generation of the same family. It's not likely it was shipped to your grandfather, but as we speak, NOBODY here knows the first thing about that-------and never will without the letter.

By the way, that gun I mentioned above was owned by the gentleman I bought it from for TEN YEARS----and he never lettered it. His comment upon learning of its history was "I guess that'll teach me!"

You'd think it might well teach others as well.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[murphydog]

Welcome! I have a notation in my records of the same model gun, with a serial number about 1000 numbers away from yours, that was produced in March, 1923. As noted above this may be close to its official birthday, the ship or sales date that S & W tracks for their records. Or it may not be.

 

[Retired W4]

Welcome to the forum Chief. Nice family heirloom.

 

[Hawg Rider]

Welcome to the Forum, Chief! As you can already see, there is a wealth of information to be found here, and our Forum gurus are always willing to share their knowledge. You have a very nice early M&P .38 Spl., and a great family heirloom. Even though it's 100 years old, it should be safe to shoot any modern standard .38 Spl. ammo (but stay away from +P or +P+ ammo). You should probably have a local gunsmith check it out for you, just to be sure it's safe to shoot. I have a couple of early M&Ps- the blued 6" is a .32-20 (ca. 1923) and the other is a nickel 6" (ca. 1950). There were literally millions of M&P revolvers manufactured by S&W, so yours is not rare or particularly valuable but it is a nice family treasure. Shoot it, and enjoy it!.

 

[Truckman]

Very rarely will a letter give you the name of the first owner. It usually will tell you the exact date of shipment and to where it first shipped. As S&W generally did not sell directly to individual customers, that will nearly always be to some S&W distributor or possibly directly to a hardware or sporting goods store. That information may or may not be worth $100 to you.

Although that's generally true, there are exceptions...One of my M&P's shipped to a Texas Judge on New Year's Day in 1915 who carried the gun in court under his robes until his death in old age, and another (a target version with gold bead front sight) shipped May 22, 1917 directly to a man in Connecticut who later became that state's Governor...These are details you'll never know until you start with the letter, then do your further research......Ben

 

[JH1951]

Welcome to the Forum!
Adding a few more pictures will generate a lot more information from Forum members allowing you to document it well for future family members.
Letters are somewhat like small games of chance at the American Legion; most will not improve your financial standing, but every so often you get one that pays. I've got a half-dozen letters, and one of them (I feel) has recouped my overall investment. Another went to an interesting individual which in my opinion boosts the value of the gun. You just never know until you read it..... In your case, with the family history, you have a winner! Most of us do not have a piece with such a meaningful history. Considering that you have 'nothing' invested, the letter could be an interesting addition to your piece of family history.
Thank you for sharing it with us.

 

[rct269]

As noted above, "there is a wealth of information to be found here".

There is also a wealth of misinformation to be found here-----such as, "but stay away from +P or +P+ ammo".

I don't know the first thing about +P+ ammo, so we'll just talk about +P---and we'll talk about the regular ammo too----as it was back when your gun was made---and as it is today.

For openers, we'll talk about the "+"------they're referring to "pressure" there---what drives the bullet through the bore, and which too much of blows your gun into little pieces, and hurts you. That's another thing I don't know the first thing about, except that there's a DIRECT correlation between pressure and the velocity of the bullet---and I DO KNOW about that. I know about it today---and I know about it from back when your gun was made---------and it's "verrrrrrrrry interrrrrrrrrresting", as they say. We'll talk about it "apples to apples" too, which is to say we'll talk about the exact same load---the regular, everyday 158 grain bullet load.

Okay, here we go------------------------------regular ammo first.

Muzzle velocity from back in the day-------------858 fps (from the 1925 S&W catalog).

Muzzle velocity from today-----------755 fps (from the tables in the Gun Digest)

Now for +P from today----------890 fps (from the tables in the Gun Digest)

WOW!!--a whole 32 fps faster than from what it was back in the day (before they cut it back for whatever reason they cut it back).

After sitting and staring at stuff like this, I got the idea they cut it back so they could bump it back up, call it +P---and charge more money for it.

What's your idea?

Now just for grins, let's talk about the Plaintiffs Bar for just a bit---they're the folks who've been to Law School, and make their living by helping folks who've been injured, or had their property damaged by somebody or some thing made by somebody. They help them by suing the pants off the bad guys. As an aside, I can guarandamntee you the folks who make +P ammo know all about the Plaintiffs Bar---and there's no way on God's green earth they're going to put out a product (.38 Special ammo in this case) that's going to end up with them sitting in front of a judge and jury. That's because their Momma's didn't raise no dumb kids!!

The bottom line here is +P ammo is perfectly safe in any .38 Special handgun ever made-------or else!!

+P ammo is made to sell to folks who think they're getting something special---and they are----now. But there's nothing special about what it is compared to what it was---before it was changed---so they could change it back---and charge more money for it----your money---which is now their money----which is the name of the game!

Does all this make any sense? Well, it makes sense to me. Your reaction is yours.

Ralph Tremaine

Damn!! I forgot to vent my spleen about the new guns----rated for +P. Can you think of a better way to get some more of your money transferred over to their money? A hell of a deal!!

 

[alwslate]

To each his own. I don't buy much of any .38 spl ammo. I prefer my own cast bullet handloads. I have several model marked model 10s, a 64 and two 1956 38/44s that I will shoot +P level handloads in. I have several older K frame 38s from the 40s all the way back to my oldest from around 1910 that I only shoot standard pressure loads in. Every time this subject comes up those who want to claim all S&W 38s are ok with +P uses CLAIMED ballistics from "back in the day" from 1925 or so. This old data is meaningless today when we have real chronographed data.

 

[MTC(SS)Ret]

Welcome to the forum Chief.

 

[MajorD]

Rat 269 your comment about velocity and pressure is not exactly true. Based on what powder is used, one load may produce higher pressure at lower velocity than another load.

 

[Hawg Rider]

Rat 269 your comment about velocity and pressure is not exactly true. Based on what powder is used, one load may produce higher pressure at lower velocity than another load.

Agree! I don't consider it "misinformation" to caution a new Forum member about shooting a 100-year old revolver with high pressure loads. I'm not talking about feet per second (although that correlates to pressure), I'm concerned about whether or not that vintage revolver can handle the increased pressures over a period of time. According to my limited research, standard (SAMMI) .38 Special ammo is loaded to produce approx. 17,000 psi. +P ammo produces 20,000 psi, and +P+ (designed for law enforcement) can reach pressures from 23,500-25,000 psi. This pressure approaches the .38 Special max proof pressure of 28,000 psi. I believe in moderation in all things. Does a shooter really need to risk putting higher pressure loads through a 100-year old revolver to have fun?

 

[Muley Gil]

When +P+ ammo was introduced in the mid 1970s, it was intended to be shot in revolvers chambered in .357 Magnum. This was back in the days when the word MAGNUM upset the libs who thought that bad guys should only be shot "a little bit." You know, like when some pols say that a 9 mm Parabellum round will blow your liver out.

No, I wouldn't shoot 1970s vintage +P+ in a K or J frame .38 special. But the current +P .38 special loads will be safe in any .38 special, if said revolver is in good condition.

 

[rct269]

Interesting comments---I never knew that steel's strength deteriorated over time. I reckon I still don't know it, but it's something to think about---maybe even ask somebody who knows about it.

Okay, I've thought about it---not much, but a little. I thought about all those "skyscraper" buildings you see in big cities-----those with a bunch of steel girders holding them up----and I'm wondering about why the old ones haven't fallen down. You reckon maybe they sneak in there at night, and replace the old girders with new ones?

Food for thought!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Wiregrassguy]

 

[DWalt]

Probably millions of rounds of .38-44 ammunition have been fired in .38 Special revolvers dating back to 1899 without incident. That round had a peak chamber pressure in the range of 25-30Kpsi. In the 1930s, there were NO warnings given about the danger of firing that round in any .38 Special revolver existing at the time. And steel does not lose strength with age. Unless it gets heavily corroded, like in the case of several catastrophic bridge failure incidents.

I am in no way recommending that +P+ ammunition should be fired in older revolvers, only that if it is done, the gun will not turn into a hand grenade.

 

[Claymore33]

Welcome to the Forum Chief !

 

[rct269]

Speaking of +P----which we may very well do too much, I hear tell it came to be to compensate for the use of short barrel guns----and the resulting velocity loss. Any truth to that?

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Muley Gil]

Speaking of +P----which we may very well do too much, I hear tell it came to be to compensate for the use of short barrel guns----and the resulting velocity loss. Any truth to that?

Ralph Tremaine

AFAIK, Lee Jurras was one of the first to market ammo made with light bulleted cartridges pushed above the standard velocity rounds made by W-W and R-P, in order to increase stopping power.

This was for handguns of all barrel lengths.

 

[DWalt]

Prior to Super Vel, for revolver use your bullet choice was largely limited to Lead.