IMR 4227 in 38 Special

[Riccur]

Hello all,

Just wanted to see if you folks are running IMR4227 in your 38 special ammo. I have found very little info online or in my load books for this powder/caliber. The max I have seen is 12.3 grains with a 158 grain SJHP. But the pressures listed seem low enough to push it a little further.

Shooting a Model 10 no dash 2". At what point do you think the powder will not have enough time to burn in this short barrel gun.

So far I have worked up the following loads with no sign of pressure and low muzzle flash.

All with the 158 gr. Speer SJHP, and CCI 550 SPMagnum primers, 10.5 grns, 11.0 grns, and 11.5 grns.

After shooting three shot groups with these loads they grouped as follows from 15 yards:

10.5 grain closest to point of aim but large group size, 4-5 inches,

11.0 grain, on the horizontal aim line but 6-8 inches low, and a 3-4 inch group

11.5 grain, 2-3 inches right and 5-6 inches low, but the group was about an inch and a half.

I will be trying 11.7, 12.0, and 12.3, 12.5 and 12.8 this evening to see what happens.

With that said which load out of the three listed would you use as you carry load?

And do you have any tips or info regarding this powder/caliber.

Thanks,

Rick

 

[Riccur]

Hello all,

Just wanted to see if you folks are running IMR4227 in your 38 special ammo. I have found very little info online or in my load books for this powder/caliber. The max I have seen is 12.3 grains with a 158 grain SJHP. But the pressures listed seem low enough to push it a little further.

Shooting a Model 10 no dash 2". At what point do you think the powder will not have enough time to burn in this short barrel gun.

So far I have worked up the following loads with no sign of pressure and low muzzle flash.

All with the 158 gr. Speer SJHP, and CCI 550 SPMagnum primers, 10.5 grns, 11.0 grns, and 11.5 grns.

After shooting three shot groups with these loads they grouped as follows from 15 yards:

10.5 grain closest to point of aim but large group size, 4-5 inches,

11.0 grain, on the horizontal aim line but 6-8 inches low, and a 3-4 inch group

11.5 grain, 2-3 inches right and 5-6 inches low, but the group was about an inch and a half.

I will be trying 11.7, 12.0, and 12.3, 12.5 and 12.8 this evening to see what happens.

With that said which load out of the three listed would you use as you carry load?

And do you have any tips or info regarding this powder/caliber.

Thanks,

Rick

 

[Wayne M]

Where did you find data for IMR4227 in 38 Special?

 

[Riccur]

Hogden reload site, and a few other online sources including: www.handloads.org, www.reloadammo.com, www.gunsandammomag.com and others. The site with the 12.8 grns references the Sierra 3rd edition manual.

 

[Noah Zark]

Older reloading manuals list suggested data for the 38 Spl using IMR 4227. 4227 was a popular (although economically inefficient) powder for 38 Spl and 357 Magnum back in the 50s, 60s, and into the 70s, along with 2400 and Unique.

Noah

 

[bmcgilvray]

In my view it has nothing in particular to recommend it for use in the .38 Special. I did once make up a decent load using 4227 with Sierra's 170 grain FMJ round nose silhouette bullet for use in my Model 14 with 8 3/8-inch barrel. I obtained a muzzle velocity of 1002 fps with the load.

Generally though, with standard 158 grain lead bullets, it returns low velocities and leaves a lot of yellow/green crumbs of half burnt powder in the bore, inside of frame, and on the cylinder face.

I'd enjoy reading about where your experiments lead you.

 

[OKFC05]

About the only justification for using 4227 ( an exceptionally slow powder) in ordinary .38 loads is that you can't get any other powder.

It is a classic mismatch in a stubby low-pressure load. Nothing is going to make it burn efficiently.

Bullseye, Unique, Red Dot, HP38/Win 231, 7625, and a dozen others would be better powders to use in your .38.....

 

[Riccur]

Well I concluded the above testing and was somewhat happy. But not at a satisfied stage yet.

The 11.7 loads shot a nice .75 inch group at 15 yards, The 12.0 and 12.3 were all over but interestingly each first shot from the higher loads was inside the 3/4 inch group of the 11.7 load. This group was 2.5 inches low and a half inch right of the aim point.

There was powder in the barrel after the higher loads but there was no powder in the barrel after the 11.5 from yesterday or the first three shots from the 11.7.

However, I then shot nine shots with the 11.7 and had some powder in one cylinder and the barrel.

I will pickup some other powders tomorrow. Hopefully some Bullseye.

Thanks for the input,

Rick

 

[Paul5388]

4227 has always been noted for producing excellent accuracy.

It's single based, so it should be very stable in different temperatures.

I'm currently using it in .30-30 cast bullet loads with better results than 2400 or Unique.

 

[bluetopper]

I tried 12gr of 4227 (Lee data) behind a 148gr coated button nose wadcutter at 25yds over the weekend with very good accuracy.

 

[Doubless]

I think the low POI you are seeing is due to the comparatively slow burn rate of the IMR 4227, which it definitely has compared to the traditional 38 powders, so velocity is significantly slower. Also, 4227 needs significantly higher pressures than even the 38 +P offers to completely burn. Therefore the un-burned and partially-burned kernels.

In short, although you may be able to "make it work", as has already been mentioned, there are far better powders for the application.

 

[DWalt]

Might be good for use with 200 grain .38 Special bullets in heavy loads.

 

[Nevada Ed]

IMR 4227 in my 686 6" L frame revolver was fair.

14.0gr C with a 110 and 125gr JHP did +/- 945fps.

11.0grs with a cci500 did 888fps for a POA loading.

In the 38 J frame snub nose.................
10.0grs of IMR 4227 did 571fps average on the first test but...
the second load of this slow powder got behind the ejector and
LOCKED UP the CYLINDER.

I had to take the revolver home for cleaning and a full take down
to get it back to working again.
Make sure this powder in the snub nose is uses only for target loads.
Not the most economical powder for the 38 special but it will work.

PS:
Don't bother trying it with the 9mm pistol.
SR4756 is the slowest that worked for me.

 

[SLT223]

It takes lots of pressure to get 4227 to burn properly. Based on my experience with it in .357 i wouldn't even bother with it in .38 or any other low pressure application.

 

[SquarePizza]

I use it for both a 38+p (maybe light 357), and for 41 special.

For my 686 (3" barrel): 12.0 grains, mag primer, 158 gr speer LSWCHP Approx 900-950fps

For the 657 (2 5/8ths barrel): 15.0 gr, mag primer, 215 LSWC Approx 800-850fps

While I do get some trace amounts of unburnt kernals left over, they have yet to be a a large issue (no gumming up or locking up).

However, even with the inefficient burn, this is by far the most accurate powder I have tried with both of those revolvers, AND of all the powders I have on hand, it produces the smallest and most orange-red flash in lowight conditions.

So I am heavily sold on this stuff =)

 

[BC38]

I'm glad to see others confirming what I've seen elsewhere. That 4227 is a decent 357 and 44 magnum powder, but not so good for 38 special. I picked some up cheap ($10 a pound) to use for full boat magnum loads, and will use it for magnums only.
BTW, 14gr isn't too far from the bottom end of the 357 magnum loading range (15.3gr for a 158gr LSWC, IIRC).

 

[Wise_A]

AND of all the powders I have on hand, it produces the smallest and most orange-red flash in lowight conditions.

So I am heavily sold on this stuff =)

I cannot object to this logic.

 

[SLT223]

I'm glad to see others confirming what I've seen elsewhere. That 4227 is a decent 357 and 44 magnum powder, but not so good for 38 special. I picked some up cheap ($10 a pound) to use for full boat magnum loads, and will use it for magnums only.
BTW, 14gr isn't too far from the bottom end of the 357 magnum loading range (15.3gr for a 158gr LSWC, IIRC).

Yeah, under 15gr make sure you wear long sleeves, and a welding mask. At 14.7gr I litterally tattooed the left side of my face with unburned kernels because the pressure build was so slow the gas (and debris) began working its way back through the cylinder before the brass could fully expand to obturate the chamber.

I felt the stinging sensation but didn't realize what was happening. When I got home and looked in a mirror I noticed I looked like a knicked myself shaving.

Edit: Hodgdon data says max of 13.0gr with a 140gr XTP....I don't think they really tested that in a revolver.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

It takes lots of pressure to get 4227 to burn properly. Based on my experience with it in .357 i wouldn't even bother with it in .38 or any other low pressure application.

I totally agree.In my experience,the burning rate of IMR 4227 ,being slower than 2400 or H110/WW296,it begins to offer some performance in a case that has got a large boiler room.Even in the .44 mag,it'll leave unburnt kernels of powder meaning incomplete combustion.I think that it would be good in cases like the .454 Casull and larger.
But its accuracy,even if it gives away aprox 100FPS compared to H110/WW296,it is very accurate and is softer shooting with 240/265gr bullets.
Qc