Is my M & P a Target Model?
- Thread starter Aussie Bruce
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ParadiseRoad
Member
...sure looks like the sights were added after it left the factory...rear sight appears to be a later model "Micrometer" type which was the standard adjustable rear sight after WWII...front sight appears to be fabricated...I can't make out the caliber marking on the barrel...it doesn't appear to be 38 Special...or 32-20 either...post the caliber...and the serial number off of the bottom of the grip frame...and I'm sure others will be along to figure out exactly what you have there...
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You have a target model, but not a factory target model. It's a pre war revolver with post war rear target sight installed and a homemade front sight blade added as ParadiseRoad posted.
I'm sure it's a great shooter, just no factory collector value. The post war rear sight is actually a great improvement over the target sight that gun would have come with had it been a pre war target model.
I'm sure it's a great shooter, just no factory collector value. The post war rear sight is actually a great improvement over the target sight that gun would have come with had it been a pre war target model.
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Cool gun. It appears as though the top strap was not deeply inletted for the rear sight, resulting in the need for the super tall front blade.
Looks like maybe the caliber marking is .38 S&W to me.
Interesting Target "conversion"
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Interesting Target "conversion"
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
38 S&W means not originally a target gun. British Service Revolver with a 6" barrel is my guess with a welded front sight. 38 S&W was never known as a target round and if the cylinder has been modified to 38 Special, the .357" bullet in a .361 barrel would likely result in less than satisfactory accuracy.
This is one of those modifications when you wish the owner who had the gun modified would still be around to tell some stories.
This is one of those modifications when you wish the owner who had the gun modified would still be around to tell some stories.
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gwpercle
Member
I'm thinking someone was into long range shooting with this handgun. That tall front sight would certainly help with that....I don't know what the sight picture would be a closer ranges but possibly it was only for "reaching out there" .
Very interesting. What is it chambered in and have you tried shooting it ?
Gary
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Jim Watson
Member
Six inch barrel and polished blue .38 S&W.
So what kind of British service revolver is that?
So what kind of British service revolver is that?
Alk8944
US Veteran
Long range Fred???? The high front sight would suit the gun for shooting heavier than standard bullets at more normal pistol distances of 25 yards or less. Long range shooting requires a lower front sight, combined with a higher rear sight. The rear slide in this sight looks to probably be either a .126" or .146".
Made me wonder too. I found references to some six-inch BSRs made in the prewar 675000-725000 range. I would guess this might be one of those. Don't take those numbers too literally; I just grabbed a big block of numbers that seemed to include some six-inchers, which are not commonly seen among military contract handguns of the late '30s and '40s.
If the original poster would care to share the serial number from the butt of the gun, we might able to zero in on its date a little better. I'm guessing 1939-1941 at this point, but the number would help nail it down. And does it still chamber only .38 S&W, or has it been converted to handle .38 Special as well?
I see the micrometer rear sight on a prewar frame and it makes me think of the Mexican model MP Target. The Mexican has a taller front sight than anything i have looked at in pics of K frames. So i wouldn't be surprised if the OPs front sight was pretty close to the right size.
OP
Aussie Bruce
Member
The serial number is 700129 and the calibre is .38 S & W.
There is a hole in the grip frame where a lanyard ring has been removed.I am now inclined to think it was one of the ones sent to Britain during the war that has been modified
As David noted, there were reports of 6" BSAs out there. Roy states that the British were supplied with 4", 5", and 6" guns. Polished blue was a pretty common refinish and the gun could have easily been re-blued when customizing it. The Mexican M&P is an interesting option, but I thought they were 38 Specials?
Anyway, with a lanyard ring hole in the butt-frame, it still sounds military.
I didn't think it was a mexican model as the front blade is clearly modified.
Just that i could picture the front sight needing to be tall if micrometer rear sights were on it as is the mexican.
Tempted to get out my K22 Outdoorsman and compare front blades with my 22/40. The 22/40 having the micrometer rear sight maybe that blade is taller?
It's not a Mexican Model. They were indeed .38 Special, but the rear sights were like those on the second model K-22 (K-22/40). I've always suspected that the sights on the Mexican models were in fact leftovers from the K-22/40 as production of those came to a rather abrupt halt when WWII interrupted things.
Mark
Texas Star
US Veteran
Six-inch BSR's were not as uncommon as inferred tonight. We've seen a couple here, one issued to a South African pilot seconded to the RAF. His was carried in North Africa and in Burma. My brother had another, in quite nice shape.
A member in a Western state has one that won't shoot for sour grapes, cause unknown. If he's sorted that out, I hope he sees this and posts about it.
I've seen a whole group of RAF pilots with these sticking way out of the holsters, which were made for five-inch barrels. I've seen Aussies handling them in WWII. Some were pilots standing in formation, probably the whole squadron. I read a book by a Canadian officer who referred to his long-barreled S&W .38, probably a six-incher if he made that distinction about barrel length.
I think this gun was a BSR that some Aussie who couldn't buy a K-38 made into a target sighted M&P. The cartridge precludes it being meant for long range use.
I've been told by other Aussies in three states that they can't use a revolver for hunting even small game or vermin, and armed defense there is a tragic joke, so it can only be used at average target shooting distances, on paper targets. At that, it probably works fine. For killing an attacking crocodile or Tasmanian Devil, no hope, legally or otherwise.
Wait: I have seen Ruger .44 Magnums worn in the Northern Territory for croc defense. So maybe that state does allow handguns in the outdoors? Still wouldn't like to have to stop a 20 foot saltwater croc with a .38-200.
The front sight may be intended to in some way compensate for normal .38 S&W trajectory vs. that of the Commonwealth service load with 178 grain bullet. Installing the postwar adj. rear sight would have ruined the original sighting ratio.
A member in a Western state has one that won't shoot for sour grapes, cause unknown. If he's sorted that out, I hope he sees this and posts about it.
I've seen a whole group of RAF pilots with these sticking way out of the holsters, which were made for five-inch barrels. I've seen Aussies handling them in WWII. Some were pilots standing in formation, probably the whole squadron. I read a book by a Canadian officer who referred to his long-barreled S&W .38, probably a six-incher if he made that distinction about barrel length.
I think this gun was a BSR that some Aussie who couldn't buy a K-38 made into a target sighted M&P. The cartridge precludes it being meant for long range use.
I've been told by other Aussies in three states that they can't use a revolver for hunting even small game or vermin, and armed defense there is a tragic joke, so it can only be used at average target shooting distances, on paper targets. At that, it probably works fine. For killing an attacking crocodile or Tasmanian Devil, no hope, legally or otherwise.
Wait: I have seen Ruger .44 Magnums worn in the Northern Territory for croc defense. So maybe that state does allow handguns in the outdoors? Still wouldn't like to have to stop a 20 foot saltwater croc with a .38-200.
The front sight may be intended to in some way compensate for normal .38 S&W trajectory vs. that of the Commonwealth service load with 178 grain bullet. Installing the postwar adj. rear sight would have ruined the original sighting ratio.
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Here's the 1946 Mexican Model, only 2901 made.
The front sight is tall and the rear sight is flush with the top strap. This contract was a wonderful way for S&W to rid them selves of a large lot of obsolete guns/parts. Notice the mushroom extractor knob that was replaced after 1928. Doesn’t even have the post war 4 line address.
Photo by cgt4570 (Chris Taylor owner)
The front sight is tall and the rear sight is flush with the top strap. This contract was a wonderful way for S&W to rid them selves of a large lot of obsolete guns/parts. Notice the mushroom extractor knob that was replaced after 1928. Doesn’t even have the post war 4 line address.
Photo by cgt4570 (Chris Taylor owner)
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Jim, there are probably not many left out there in the condition your revolver shows. I have three questions, since I would like to know how to identify in case I ever run into one for sale.
First, you call it a 1946 Mexican made up of surplus parts like the mushroom knob and pre-war sights. Were there enough available to make 2900 guns with the same configuration? Second, would these all letter as Mexican Models and were all made in a short time period? Lastly, do those stocks match the gun? It is probably the photo, but the checkering looks a little different than early Masterpiece revolvers out there?
BTW - is there anything published about this model?
First, you call it a 1946 Mexican made up of surplus parts like the mushroom knob and pre-war sights. Were there enough available to make 2900 guns with the same configuration? Second, would these all letter as Mexican Models and were all made in a short time period? Lastly, do those stocks match the gun? It is probably the photo, but the checkering looks a little different than early Masterpiece revolvers out there?
BTW - is there anything published about this model?
Gary,
It's not mine, and thank you for reminding me I left off the photo credit and ownership, please see edited post.
I just don't know how many old model guns and parts S&W had left to construct Mexican Models. But Smith made them all from left over pre war frames and barrels. They made parts in large batches and I suspect left over Victory Model M&P frames after the war were taken up space.
Just a few years ago Smith did a house cleaning and auctioned off 55 50 gal drums of parts that are now owned by Popperts Parts. They even had parts from triple locks because I bought some.
All produced between 11/27/45 and 12/31/46, History of S&W by Jinks, pg. 175. Stocks shown in the book are pre war Magnas with sharp cornered checkering border and ‘sharp shoulder’.
A couple of threads about them:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...264368-what-value-1946-mexican-model-k38.html
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...8-m-p-target-model-1946-mexican-now-pics.html
It's not mine, and thank you for reminding me I left off the photo credit and ownership, please see edited post.
I just don't know how many old model guns and parts S&W had left to construct Mexican Models. But Smith made them all from left over pre war frames and barrels. They made parts in large batches and I suspect left over Victory Model M&P frames after the war were taken up space.
Just a few years ago Smith did a house cleaning and auctioned off 55 50 gal drums of parts that are now owned by Popperts Parts. They even had parts from triple locks because I bought some.
All produced between 11/27/45 and 12/31/46, History of S&W by Jinks, pg. 175. Stocks shown in the book are pre war Magnas with sharp cornered checkering border and ‘sharp shoulder’.
A couple of threads about them:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...264368-what-value-1946-mexican-model-k38.html
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...8-m-p-target-model-1946-mexican-now-pics.html
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