Is this true?

[gr8AmericanBash]

My MIL took her concealed carry class on Saturday here in Charlotte. The guy that taught it is well known here in town, on TV and stuff.

Anyway, during the course he told the class that in a SD situation, it's best to not cock the hammer on a DA revolver. I tend to agree, but not for the reason he gave.

I have always heard its best to not cock the hammer for the simple reason that in a stressful situation, you would probably be very tense and jumpy and more likely to pull the trigger unintentionally.

Well, the reason he told the class to never cock the hammer is that forensics can prove by inspecting the fired casing if the gun was discharged via single action or double action trigger pull.

My question: is this true? I tend to want to call BS on this, but I don't know. I have never heard of forensics being able to prove this. Can anybody shed any light on the subject?

 

[The Rabbi]

I dont understand his explanation, unless it is a back up to your explanation. There is no law against cocking the hammer and firing it single action. I would imagine the primer will show more indentation from a single action pull (I have had rounds that didnt go off when shot DA but did when shot SA). But so what?

You are right that accidental discharge is a good reason not to cock the hammer, and many dept's in the old revolver days had policies specifically against it. SOme people feel like cocking it is more of a threat to the bad guys. My feeling is if you have the gun out already you are moments away from shooting it and cocking the hammer is a waste of time.

 

[afriqueart]

We're taking the CCW class this Saturday. I'll ask my instructor who is a veteran LEO. Might be something Massad Ayoob could discuss.

 

[AWP79]

I dont see what difference it would make but I guess its a good scare tactic to get his students to remember not to cock in a SD situation.

 

[linde]

I agree that SA is a dangerous self-defense tactic ... and I don't know whether forensics can determine SA versus DA ... but what is the conclusion if it can? Is the instructor suggesting that a prosecuting attorney would claim a single action shot is more pre-meditated than defensive?

Russ

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

well, the reason he told the class to never cock the hammer is that forensics can prove by inspecting the fired casing if the gun was discharged via single action or double action trigger pull.my question: Is this true?.

I disagree e-m-p-h-a-t-i-c-a-l-l-y!

Caj- I cleaned it up for ya. C'mon now, set the standard for the returning guys..........

 

[feralmerril]

How in hell can anyone tell that a gun was fired by single or double action? Now I also agree that thumb cocking a revolver shouldnt be done for about 3 reasons that come to mind. First once it is cocked, in a super stressfull situation it is far more apt to go off if the situation deescalates and you dont want or need to shoot. I remember the deadwhyler case that made johnny cockrans career. It was in los angles. A cop pulled over deadwyler who was speeding his wife to the hospital to have a baby. The cop about screwed his revolver in deadwylers ear. In the excitement the car lurched forward bumping the cops arm and ruined deadwylers day! Now by what circumstances does one need to ear the hammer back at point blank range? I imagine its a good attendtion getter to make your point. By the way, after that incident LA called in all revolvers and made them DAO.
Next, why vary and complicate your training? You probley were trained to use DAO, and in a defendsive situation arent going to be used to the lighter trigger. If I am hunting, I am going to shoot SA for extra accuaracy. However, I probley will have the time and the critter is much farther away and aint shooting back. In a defendsive situation it will be very close, and if justifable, you will be needing shooting very fast and not wanting to even take the extra time to thumb cock.

 

[sar4937]

Right or wrong we were told that cocking the gun ahead of time could show premeditation. I'm not sure if DA shows lighter strikes, might be easy to check. I prefer a stiffer pull first shot on a ccw gun.

 

[gr8AmericanBash]

I dont understand his explanation, unless it is a back up to your explanation.

I didn't either, and I don't think it does back up my explanation, IMHO.

There is no law against cocking the hammer and firing it single action. I would imagine the primer will show more indentation from a single action pull (I have had rounds that didnt go off when shot DA but did when shot SA). But so what?

That is the only thing I could think of that forensics could determine. If it could even at that.

You are right that accidental discharge is a good reason not to cock the hammer, and many dept's in the old revolver days had policies specifically against it. SOme people feel like cocking it is more of a threat to the bad guys. My feeling is if you have the gun out already you are moments away from shooting it and cocking the hammer is a waste of time.

Agree on all points.

I dont see what difference it would make but I guess its a good scare tactic to get his students to remember not to cock in a SD situation.

That's why I assumed he told them that.

I agree that SA is a dangerous self-defense tactic ... and I don't know whether forensics can determine SA versus DA ... but what is the conclusion if it can? Is the instructor suggesting that a prosecuting attorney would claim a single action shot is more pre-meditated than defensive?

Russ

Yes, the instructor claimed that a prosecuting attorney could prove the shooting was premeditated and not SD. Again, I say BS.

b-u-l-l-

Yep, that's what I told the MIL.

 

[gr8AmericanBash]

Right or wrong we were told that cocking the gun ahead of time could should premeditation. I'm not sure if DA shows lighter strikes, might be easy to check. I prefer a stiffer pull first shot on a ccw gun.

That's what I was wondering.

I don't have any fired brass that is broken down into shot DA vs. shot SA. I wonder if anybody does, and can determine if the firing pin strike on the primer is deeper or shallower when fired SA vs. DA.

I may try to go to the range this week just to do a little research on this if I get some free time.

 

[RonJ]

This came up two or three years ago. I mentioned that I preferred a Bodyguard, 36 or 60 over any Centennial
because being able to thumbcock just might be a last resort to get an assailant to back down. I was shouted down by a couple of seniors here.
I hope I NEVER have to shoot anyone, but if the necessity presents itself I hope cocking the hammer makes a BG think twice. Maybe it'll SAVE his life.

 

[sar4937]

Big mistake for a bad guy to think you won't shoot because you haven't cocked your gun. Funny how on tv some cops even cock their semi's in front of badguys, I always thought it was just to add drama. In Nebraska, if you fire your gun at a distance that required SA for accuracy, you're going to have some explaining to do. Our law requires eminent death to use a gun, and I won't be cocking at that point. If I did cock the gun and the bad guy backed off it could be interpreted as menacing, to someone that did not observe the entire event.

 

[Smitty500Mag]

Right or wrong we were told that cocking the gun ahead of time could show premeditation.

Yep it was premeditated your honor. He jumped out of the bushes and was coming at me to kill me so I cocked the gun and shot him...DUH!

Smitty

 

[USAF385]

I was once told by an instructor that the sound of a pump shotgun is universal. Everyone knows what that sound means no matter what language they speak. If you were able to go back in time, caveman would know what that sound meant.

I guess the sound of a hammer being cocked is similar.

I've been trying and trying for a good 15 minutes to cock the hammer on my carry gun, but I can't do it... anyone know what could be causing this? My 642 is in great condition and never had any problems........

 

[Horace Smith]

Right or wrong we were told that cocking the gun ahead of time could show premeditation.

Some premeditiation is desireable. Time needs to be taken to identify/aprise the threat and what lays around/behind the target. A single action shot just might better ensure stopping the problem in a safe manner. The situation and coolness of the defender comes into play.

 

[samIam]

I was once told by an instructor that the sound of a pump shotgun is universal. Everyone knows what that sound means no matter what language they speak. If you were able to go back in time, caveman would know what that sound meant.

I guess the sound of a hammer being cocked is similar. QUOTE]

Iv'e the same thing about the shotgun,my problem is I keep a round chambered.And I'm not going to pump one out on the floor just for effect.I figure that the sight of a shotgun or handgun should be enough.

samIam

 

[Zilmo]

I was once told by an instructor that the sound of a pump shotgun is universal. Everyone knows what that sound means no matter what language they speak. If you were able to go back in time, caveman would know what that sound meant.

I remember about forty years ago my dad telling me about this. He was foreman at a machine shop, and was always at work by 4:30 in the morning, to fill out time cards, check on jobs in progress etc. One morning he was sitting at his desk, and he heard that unmistakable racking sound behind him. He stopped what he was doing, made a small mess in his shorts, and put his hands up. It seems there had been a robbery near by, and someone saw the BG run towards the building he was in. The cops had come in silently and scared hell out of my old man.

 

[S-W4EVER]

Well, the reason he told the class to never cock the hammer is that forensics can prove by inspecting the fired casing if the gun was discharged via single action or double action trigger pull.

If you have to think about what "forensics can prove", you probably shouldn't pull the trigger.

 

[Alpo]

I was once told by an instructor that the sound of a pump shotgun is universal. Everyone knows what that sound means no matter what language they speak. If you were able to go back in time, caveman would know what that sound meant.

I guess the sound of a hammer being cocked is similar.

I've been trying and trying for a good 15 minutes to cock the hammer on my carry gun, but I can't do it... anyone know what could be causing this? My 642 is in great condition and never had any problems........

It's probably because of the lock.

 

[Dan Cash]

That's what I was wondering.

I don't have any fired brass that is broken down into shot DA vs. shot SA. I wonder if anybody does, and can determine if the firing pin strike on the primer is deeper or shallower when fired SA vs. DA.

I may try to go to the range this week just to do a little research on this if I get some free time.

I just rolled out side and fired six from a 19, three SA and 3 DA. Can't tell the difference with maked eye or magnifying glass. Not saying what a forensics lab can do.

A neighbor who kept a country store was robbed a few years ago. He protested and a gun fight erupted. His hads were very arthritic and he could only shoot SA. He has spent 5 rounds and cocked it back figuring to bush whack the thug as he rounded a set of shelves. The thug went the other way and the store keeper ran out the back door and around the side of the store to take up a position behind some oil drums by the front door.

When he changed position, he lowered the hammer. As the thug came out the front, the store keeper cocked his Smith and dropped the hammer on the emerging thug. CLICK! He had cycled past his one remaining round. The thug fired on him with a Mini 14 and wounded the store keeper, making good his escape.

Single action combat shooting requires different training than DA. Normally, stay with DA.