JHP versus FMJ

[GaryS]

I'm planning to start carrying my 457S once the weather gets a bit cooler.

So, my question is just what the thread title says. I'm leaning to JHP as I have a box of HST 230gr.

Just looking for thoughts, not a 9mm versus 45ACP debate.

 

[Rustyt1953]

I have long used only ball ammo in my CC and HD guns.

The world's cemeteries (military and civilian) are loaded with proof of FMJ's effectiveness.

 

[BB57]

Beck when I was an investigator I knew a thoracic surgeon from South Africa who between conflict zones in SA and a surgical residency in NYC had operated on about 1500 gunshot wound victims shot in the chest.

He felt unequivocally that the 230 gr FMJ was the most lethal round one of his patients could be shot with or that patient was shot with just one round.

But before anyone gets too excited we need to unpack that statement.

First there is a survivor bias working here. He only worked on patients that survived long enough to reach his operating room. If they died on scene, in the ambulance or in the ER before being prepped for surgery, he didn’t see them.

He probably saw fewer people shot with hollow points as they were less likely to survive long enough to meet him.

Second, in African conflict zones he was far more likely to encounter people shot with FMJ, and shot for shot the .45 caliber 230 gr FMJ was more lethal than a 9mm 147 gr FMJ. It just made a bigger hole.

Third, not everyone gets shot just once and he also felt that the more times a person was shot, the more wound tracks there were to potentially hit vital organs or blood vessels and the more likely it was that they’d die before he could fix all the damage. Specifically, he felt the lowly .22 LR was quite lethal when a patient was shot several times with one.

In general both more wound track and larger wound tracks mean more blood loss and more potential to bleed out before sufficient medical resources are available.

Put that all together and despite his observation about single shot victims of a 230 gr FMJ, .45 caliber hollow points and 9mm hollow points bullet for bullet are probably more lethal, and multiple rounds are always potentially more lethal than single rounds.

——


Most importantly for this discussion is to recognize that lethality isn’t the same as incapacitation.

For example, a good shooter can rapidly dump a 10 round magazine of .22 LR into an assailant and get 10 hits center of mass. The odds are very high that the assailant will die - minutes, hours or even days later.

But seconds are what count and the odds of incapacitation are very low with .22 LR, even with multiple hits. It doesn’t do the shooter any good if the assailant is able to kill or seriously injure the shooter before the assailant runs off to die somewhere.

Larger bullets, hollow point bullets, and more wound tracks all increase the potential for incapacitation via rapid blood pressure loss or a central nervous system hit.

There’s also the issue of over penetration. Everyone worries about getting adequate penetration to reach vital organs, but they need to be just as worried about excessive penetration where a bullet may pass all the way through an assailant and strike someone else. A well designed hollow point goes a long way toward ensuring a bullet striking an assailant stays in the assailant.

If you shoot an innocent bystander, whether by accident or by over penetration, you are very likely to be charged, and will almost certainly be sued.

——

There are several good hollow point loads on the market. If your handgun shoots one with 100% reliability, use it.

——-

As for 9mm versus .45 ACP, it’s a draw in my opinion.

On the one hand, the.45 ACP is larger and a well designed .45 ACP hollow point will make a bigger hole than a well designed 9mm hollow point.

On the other hand, I can score three A zone hits with 9mm in he same period of time it takes me to score just two A zone hits with 45 ACP.

If you crunch the numbers for wound volume, given equal penetration two rounds of .45 ACP expanded hollow points and three rounds of 9mm expanded hollow points produce essentially identical results.

 

[robertrwalsh]

It is a balancing act. There is a lot of personal opinion, both informed and uninformed, and some actual factual information and much anecdotal information around. Plus bullets and powder are getting MUCH BETTER. In addition overpenetration is a REAL issue in police and private citizen SD shootings. Seldom will a .45 ACP FMJ overpenetrate in a factory load. A hollow-point has lees ricochet potential. FMJ will give better penetration. HP will, at least in theory, give a bigger wound channel and therefore more likelihood of incapacitation with fewer hits.

I highly recommend you go with what you feel most comfortable for your own reasons with AS LONG AS YOUR WEAPON FUNCTIONS RELIABLY WITH IT.

(I carry HP in my .45acp on the rare occasion I carry one for SD use.)

 

[Borderboss]

The argument that the .45ACP is already .452 so doesn't need to expand to get more effective is a false argument. The expansion is great from a tissue shock perspective. But it's also there to prevent over penetration.

The FMJ is pretty much guaranteed to over penetrate. You're responsible for what happens with every bullet that you fired until that thing stops flying.

The Federal HST however is an outstanding bullet design that will open up and not over penetrate. Check HERE for Lucky Gunner's testing of this round.

It's obviously your choice. But I would never carry an FMJ in any caliber for the over penetration issues.

 

[armorer951]

Over the past 20+ years, I've seen the results of the Federal 230gr HST ammunition at autopsy....several times. IMHO, these are the best carry rounds for the .45acp caliber. (and many other smaller calibers)

With the advancements in modern ammunition in the past two decades, there is absolutely no reason not to carry the newly designed hollow points from Federal (HST), Speer (Gold Dot), Winchester (Ranger T-Series), and Remington (Golden Saber).

If your carry gun won't feed them reliably, you need a new carry firearm.

Purchase and use what you can shoot accurately and consistently in your carry gun, and only use what is reliable 100% of the time.

Remember, you have to shoot it to know....and confidence builds restraint.

 

[shawn mccarver]

In my personal opinion, you want controlled expansion to make sure all of the energy of the round is dumped into the body, and the expansion helps with the size of the permanent wound cavity, all of which contribute to better stopping power with less risk of over penetration.

 

[biku324]

My preference is the wide meplat Winchester RED45 FMJFP, 230 grain.

 

[ispcapt]

I've seen holes in warm bodies made with both .45 and 9mm FMJ. Could not tell the difference between the 2.
I worked one shooting where the shooter was using .45 FMJ and hit the guy 5 times out of 8 rds. The fatal round hit the guy as he was falling back. Entered in the right upper thigh, hit the hip bone and deflected a bit, traveled upwards diagonally thru the torso and came to rest just under the skin next to the collar bone. The other 4 rounds were thru and thru torso hits.

 

[Tu_S]

A 230gr FMJ will do fine, but the thing I noticed on the rare occasions where I buy factory loaded ammo is the JHP loads tend to be tuned more for self defense, being on the hotter side, while FMJ is more for practice on targets where some of the options seem kind of under powered.

Personally I load 230gr XTP's to a fairly light load which matches up with the 230gr FMJ that I load for practice. I could go with a higher charge, but it's comfortable to shoot, accurate, and has enough stopping power.

Of course I've also switched from an Officers ACP to micro-9's after decades with the 45, but as the OP said, that's a completely different debate

 

[Kanewpadle]

I only carry self defense ammo in all calibers.

I figure that if I’m unlucky enough to have to use my gun in self defense, my luck with FMJ would probably be the same. All bad.

Just personal preference. Not that I’m superstitious or anything.

 

[Rpg]

I carry my 45 acp handloads for everything: practice. SD, competition and wandering around our mountains: 200gr H&G 68 at about 1,000 fps.

I’ve killed some critters with it up to 250 pounds. Works just fine. I’ve never thought that an expanding bullet would do any better (assuming they actually expand: they often don’t in the field).

 

[31FordA]

The .45 HST is our current approved .45 load. It cycles reliably in my Gov’t Model and Lightweight Commander, and in the M&P 45’s some of my co-workers carry. We’ve never had to shoot anyone with it, but our Sheriffs Dept did, and it worked as intended. Even at close range it expanded and stayed in the bad guy.

 

[BB57]

It’s hard to go wrong with the HST.

I fired these into 10% ballistic gel from my 4” Kimber CDP.

Note, the second and fourth bullets are reversed, they should be from left to right: 9mm 124 gr XTP, .45 ACP gr 230 gr XTP, .45 ACP 230 gr Remington Golden Saber, and Federal 230 gr HST.

The HSTs demonstrated the least penetration at around 14”. That compares to about 18” for the Hornady XTP and about 16” for the Golden Saber rounds. But it is still adequate penetration well over the 12” mark and the expansion is impressive.

It shows the progression from the older school XTP, designed to give reliable 1.5x expansion mushrooming to around .60-.65” with very good penetration, to the slightly later Golden Saber designed to expand with petals to around .75”, and the more modern HST designed for even greater expansion around .85”.

I’m comfortable carrying any of them.

The XTPs penetrate farther, without over penetrating. They are also significantly larger than their 9mm counterpart - and are larger in expanded diameter than nearly all of the most modern 9mm hollow points.

The HSTs expand to an impressive .85” with good penetration.

The Golden Sabers split the difference with a bit less expansion but better penetration.

 

[Borderboss]

I reviewed some gel testing videos with .45 ACP FMJs. All the videos I saw showed penetration at roughly 30 inches. That's too much danger of a wounded innocent bystander to suit me.

 

[chief38]

The Federal HST HP ammo is my first choice for carry and that is what I use in my 9mm EDC. I have seen some 45 acp pistols that were normally extremely reliable with ball ammo have problems digesting HP ammo. If that is the case and you want to carry a 45acp, I would switch to ball ammo (FMJ) for reliability. While the HST might show better ballistics and more trauma, it will be a big zero if the gun doesn't function.

My suggestion would be to procure a bunch of different brands and styles for a carry load and test them for reliability - not a cheap day out at the Range now days. Again, if reliability with HP's is less than perfect, I'd go with the FMJ. While it will not expand, it will get the job done if you do yours.

 

[GaryS]

I got to the range with the 457S (technically 1/2S as the slide is carbon alloy). But, I digress.

50 rounds of FMJ for practice, followed by two magazines of HST 230gr JHP to function check the actual carry magazines and make sure the ammo cycles reliably. Ideally I'd do more, but HST is in short supply right now and I want to make sure I have 15 rounds for carry.

Everything worked perfectly and my aim was adequate for self defense. As in at about 30 feet everything was on the target through a reduced size B-27 target. Nothing outside the seven ring.

As a bonus I ran a box of 22WMR through my 351C. Not my preferred SD gun, but I have carried it in some social situations. I have some 45gr HST in 22WMR that I bought at some point.

Not as accurate as the 457S, but adequate if it's my only option.

Thanks to all for the comments, ideas, and suggestions.

 

[Smoke]

The world's cemeteries (military and civilian) are loaded with proof of FMJ's effectiveness.

I don't remember where the cite is from but 2/3 of the causalities in World War 1 and 2 were caused by Artillery not small arms

 

[Rustyt1953]

Nowhere in my post did I mention or infer "artillery" as the discussion was about handgun ammo.

 

[ladder13]

I like Silvertips and Golddots but have never shot anyone to make a 100% determination what’s best.
Guess I could bow to the experts.

I really like Gold Dots for all my SD use.